easy. pronounce "law" with the father vowel, and pronounce the r in lore. Then they couldn't be more different
Why are Antimooners so obsessed with accents?
British people are not really obsessed with accents - not at all, in fact as we hear so many of them most of the time, it's part of our existence here, and take them all as a matter of course...we live in a country which contains so many of them...far more than you would imagine in a country which is so physically small in comparative terms...eg: you can comfortably fit the entire UK into the American State of Texas about two and a half times over. I don't have any idea how varied the accents of Texas are...if indeed they are varied by that much at all....I'd probably guess that native born Texans all speak more or less the same way...slow and drawly and deeply Southern US style, but maybe there are regional differences in Texas-speak.
It's certainly true that many Britons favour some British accents more than they do others...as shown whenever polls are taken....so maybe we are "obsessed in a way but not really.....the polls are very rarely taken.The same UK regional accents regularly top the list of accents liked the most and the same ones regularly appear at the bottom.... the least liked accents within our shores. I'm proud to say that the general Scottish accent invariably comes near the top of the pops accentwise, with the general Irish accent also fairly high on the list, along with standard RP but most definitely not of the "posh" kind....just the ordinary run of the mill English English RP - as spoken by the likes of Keira Knightley or Judi Dench or Jude Law....most actors in UK drama schools have undergone training in the reasonable acquisition of regional accents.
Least popular are the Birmingham and Scouse (Liverpool/Merseyside accent) and, surprisingly, Welsh....although the Welsh accent can vary quite noticeably between North and South Wales...with Mid Wales itself again being quite different from the other two....it sounds very similar to the rural accents of parts of western and south western England.....the overall British public (mostly the English portion of it I reckon!) don't care all that much for the general Welsh accent, but many English people have some kind of innate antipathy to anything Welsh anyway.....an historical resentment they feel over the determined refusal by the Welsh to submit to all the English attempts to stamp out the Welsh identity, it's unique culture and...above all....it's Language. In the late 19th century the English tried all manner of means to eradicate the use of the Welsh Language in Wales.....all of them have failed I am glad to say and there are still parts of Wales where Welsh is the normal means of communication on a domestic level but of course English takes priority on an official level and there is not a single Welsh person who is not fluent in English...life would be impossible for them otherwise.
Britain once had a Prime Minister...Edward Heath....who prided himself on his ability to speak French. His home town was Broadstairs, on the coast of East Kent, literally within sight of the coast of France on a clear day...just 25 miles away across the Channel. Having been brought up so close to France it coulkd be considered somehow "natural" for him to know at least some French - but that is not actually the case for the majority of people who live in the part of Britain closest to France and the Continent...most can't speak French to save their own lives I reckon.
Although Edward Heath apparently spoke French quite well, using correct grammar and syntax and all the rest of it, his accent was something else altogether...I've heard recordings of some of his French speeches to French audiences. It was so obvious that the man was English, and spoke English with an extremely "plum in the mouth" RP Southern English English accent as you will hear from the following YT clip, a sort of send up on the way the poor bloke spoke. He really did speak French with the same "plummy" SEEA accent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZByWk6SPM0&feature=related
It's not the British who are obsessed with accents when they are in the USA...it's the Americans, according to the Brits in the British Expats site. There are hardly any Brits in America who haven't been told at sometime that they have a "cute" accent or "I just love your accent" and sometimes even: "I just love your accent - say that again!"
I can't ever imagine that happening with a Glaswegian or a Scouse or a chronic Estuary Cockneyspeak accent - surely not! Or maybe it does, I just wouldn't know.
This "cute accent" thing just never happens in reverse with Americans over here in the UK, or if it does it's very rarely.
The apparent Transatlantic "accent love affair" - UK/USA - is very much a one way street by and large.
It's certainly true that many Britons favour some British accents more than they do others...as shown whenever polls are taken....so maybe we are "obsessed in a way but not really.....the polls are very rarely taken.The same UK regional accents regularly top the list of accents liked the most and the same ones regularly appear at the bottom.... the least liked accents within our shores. I'm proud to say that the general Scottish accent invariably comes near the top of the pops accentwise, with the general Irish accent also fairly high on the list, along with standard RP but most definitely not of the "posh" kind....just the ordinary run of the mill English English RP - as spoken by the likes of Keira Knightley or Judi Dench or Jude Law....most actors in UK drama schools have undergone training in the reasonable acquisition of regional accents.
Least popular are the Birmingham and Scouse (Liverpool/Merseyside accent) and, surprisingly, Welsh....although the Welsh accent can vary quite noticeably between North and South Wales...with Mid Wales itself again being quite different from the other two....it sounds very similar to the rural accents of parts of western and south western England.....the overall British public (mostly the English portion of it I reckon!) don't care all that much for the general Welsh accent, but many English people have some kind of innate antipathy to anything Welsh anyway.....an historical resentment they feel over the determined refusal by the Welsh to submit to all the English attempts to stamp out the Welsh identity, it's unique culture and...above all....it's Language. In the late 19th century the English tried all manner of means to eradicate the use of the Welsh Language in Wales.....all of them have failed I am glad to say and there are still parts of Wales where Welsh is the normal means of communication on a domestic level but of course English takes priority on an official level and there is not a single Welsh person who is not fluent in English...life would be impossible for them otherwise.
Britain once had a Prime Minister...Edward Heath....who prided himself on his ability to speak French. His home town was Broadstairs, on the coast of East Kent, literally within sight of the coast of France on a clear day...just 25 miles away across the Channel. Having been brought up so close to France it coulkd be considered somehow "natural" for him to know at least some French - but that is not actually the case for the majority of people who live in the part of Britain closest to France and the Continent...most can't speak French to save their own lives I reckon.
Although Edward Heath apparently spoke French quite well, using correct grammar and syntax and all the rest of it, his accent was something else altogether...I've heard recordings of some of his French speeches to French audiences. It was so obvious that the man was English, and spoke English with an extremely "plum in the mouth" RP Southern English English accent as you will hear from the following YT clip, a sort of send up on the way the poor bloke spoke. He really did speak French with the same "plummy" SEEA accent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZByWk6SPM0&feature=related
It's not the British who are obsessed with accents when they are in the USA...it's the Americans, according to the Brits in the British Expats site. There are hardly any Brits in America who haven't been told at sometime that they have a "cute" accent or "I just love your accent" and sometimes even: "I just love your accent - say that again!"
I can't ever imagine that happening with a Glaswegian or a Scouse or a chronic Estuary Cockneyspeak accent - surely not! Or maybe it does, I just wouldn't know.
This "cute accent" thing just never happens in reverse with Americans over here in the UK, or if it does it's very rarely.
The apparent Transatlantic "accent love affair" - UK/USA - is very much a one way street by and large.
Law and Lore are completely different for me.
Law uses [Q], Lore uses [O], and Father uses [a]. I am fully rhotic, and I do not have an intrusive R in any set of words.
Lazar and Jasper are correct with their observations about San Francisco speech.
Law uses [Q], Lore uses [O], and Father uses [a]. I am fully rhotic, and I do not have an intrusive R in any set of words.
Lazar and Jasper are correct with their observations about San Francisco speech.
Damian, I am no expert when it comes to Texan dialects, but west Texas and east Texas seem to have an entirely different sound. The famous drawl is heard mostly in eastern Texas and in rural areas. People from Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, and other larger cities may or may not have a Southern influenced dialect. I know of proud, native-born Texans who would not sound out of place in Arizona.
Is this Welsh accent?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52oDrMb6nw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52oDrMb6nw
Damian, you have mentioned that Brits Expats often enough for me to have become intrigued by the idea, so I googled it and found it. What an utterly fascinating, absorbing website!
Two things came to mind immediately, one comment and one question. Are you game?
One thing that struck me as profound is that Brits seem to enjoy "taking a piss" on their friends. In the US, of course that phrase means "urinating". By contrast—basing on the context of the words on the UK website—the phrase seems to refer to making fun of one's friends for the sake of humor. Is this correct? If so, it seems an unusually cruel pastime, at least to an American.
The other thing mentioned was the differences in the usage of the word "brilliant". On this issue, I don't even have a clue. What on Earth were they referring to?
Two things came to mind immediately, one comment and one question. Are you game?
One thing that struck me as profound is that Brits seem to enjoy "taking a piss" on their friends. In the US, of course that phrase means "urinating". By contrast—basing on the context of the words on the UK website—the phrase seems to refer to making fun of one's friends for the sake of humor. Is this correct? If so, it seems an unusually cruel pastime, at least to an American.
The other thing mentioned was the differences in the usage of the word "brilliant". On this issue, I don't even have a clue. What on Earth were they referring to?
Right, accents is the most eagerly discussed subject here. I guess because it's some regulars' cup of tea. Other questions get less attention or can even be ignored.
I tell my friends - if you've got a phonology query, Antimoon is your site.
I tell my friends - if you've got a phonology query, Antimoon is your site.
Jasper:
"Are you game?" - it simply means: "are you willing to perform any action or task or undertaking of any sort"..."are you up to it", in other words....it's still used in the UK to mean this as the word "game" was. at one time, a word meaning brave, courageous, plucky.
Sometimes people may refer to a plucky elderly lady, fearful of not very much, if anyting, as "a game old bird".
People here also say things like: "She's always game for a laugh" - meaning she enjoys a good joke, and gives as good as she gets in that department.
"Brilliant!" (sometimed shortend to just "brill!) - used mostly in England. It doesn't mean very bright or shiny or dazzling in this case - it simply means something which is really, really good......fantastic, amazing, the "greatest thing since sliced bread" or "since Adam was a lad!".
Jasper - with all due respects to your fellow countrymen one of the things most of those ex-pat Brits over there appear to miss the most from back home here is "banter". Many of those Brits over there now work in American establishments, naturally - American workplaces, be they offices or whatever, and most British workplace equivalents over here are hotbeds of "banter" - friendly "verbal brick bats hurled back and forth" in jokey fashion..usually spontaneously, and often verging on the "insulting" but in no way is it meant in a nasty or cruel way...absolutely not. Repartee meets with repartee, and it's all in a teasing manner. "Taking the piss" is standard form over here, and it goes on all the time .....passing comments in a jokey way with absolutely no negative intent whatsoever...... but really - nobody takes it seriously...it really is possible to tell the difference between "friendly banter" and deliberate rudeness, but perhaps you have to be British to be able to distinguish between one and the other. In most British workplaces it would be really hard going for someone who can't "take it" sort of thing.
That's the problem many of the Brits over there have to deal with, and come to terms with, since they went to live, and work, over there - it's a different culture to what they were used back in the UK it seems, and as a result thay have had to tone down much of what they say when in the company of Americans for fear of giving offence, and being taken the wrong way entirely by them. Many feel they have to be careful with what they say and how they say them much of the time as giving offence is the last thing they want to do in a country which isn't theirs.
As you will see in that website many Brits over there use the site to arrange meet-ups with other Brits who happen to be located in their area of the country (and what a vast country it is...it's so much easier here in the UK to meet up with people in similar circumstances..we're all so much closer to each other in comparative terms!) so they can get together and take "the piss out of each other" until they are blue in the face. If by any chance they can find any place over there even resembling a British style pub which has something anywhere near the same atmosphere and ambience of ours over here in abundance, then that's absolutely brilliant - the real deal! They're made up - to use a North of England expression.
They soon discovered that that using the same banter and pisstaking was very much a big no-no over there in many cases when they were in the company of their American friends or colleagues - it simply didn't work the same way as it does back here.
It was mainly for this very reason that the UK's TV personality Anne Robinson had her "Weakest Link" contract in America withdrawn after just one single series of "Weakest Link USA". She used exactly the same format for her show over there as she did, and still does, back here in the UK. That woman is not named "The Queen of Mean" for nothing, and although all those "insults" and "verbal put downs" and snide comments and remarks about the personal appearance or whetever about each contestant, male or female, and picking on and remarking about anything she sees about them or their jobs or whatever that she recognises as worthy of comment. I like the way she often asks a male contestant who is gay if he likes musicals! It's all taken in good spirits and it's never taken as being "offensive" or untoward in any way.
All that didn't go down well with the Americans at all apparently - too many of them took it the wrong way, and as a result the US TV company over there terminated her contract and she came back home, where her show still runs on BBC-1 TV eack weekday 17:15 - 18:00hrs.
Here is the link to yesterday's show - 25/03/09 - if you have 45 minutes to spare to see it right through to the end! Today's show hasn't been put on site it it seems.
I hope you like the accent of the female Scottish contestant! ;-)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgvw
"Are you game?" - it simply means: "are you willing to perform any action or task or undertaking of any sort"..."are you up to it", in other words....it's still used in the UK to mean this as the word "game" was. at one time, a word meaning brave, courageous, plucky.
Sometimes people may refer to a plucky elderly lady, fearful of not very much, if anyting, as "a game old bird".
People here also say things like: "She's always game for a laugh" - meaning she enjoys a good joke, and gives as good as she gets in that department.
"Brilliant!" (sometimed shortend to just "brill!) - used mostly in England. It doesn't mean very bright or shiny or dazzling in this case - it simply means something which is really, really good......fantastic, amazing, the "greatest thing since sliced bread" or "since Adam was a lad!".
Jasper - with all due respects to your fellow countrymen one of the things most of those ex-pat Brits over there appear to miss the most from back home here is "banter". Many of those Brits over there now work in American establishments, naturally - American workplaces, be they offices or whatever, and most British workplace equivalents over here are hotbeds of "banter" - friendly "verbal brick bats hurled back and forth" in jokey fashion..usually spontaneously, and often verging on the "insulting" but in no way is it meant in a nasty or cruel way...absolutely not. Repartee meets with repartee, and it's all in a teasing manner. "Taking the piss" is standard form over here, and it goes on all the time .....passing comments in a jokey way with absolutely no negative intent whatsoever...... but really - nobody takes it seriously...it really is possible to tell the difference between "friendly banter" and deliberate rudeness, but perhaps you have to be British to be able to distinguish between one and the other. In most British workplaces it would be really hard going for someone who can't "take it" sort of thing.
That's the problem many of the Brits over there have to deal with, and come to terms with, since they went to live, and work, over there - it's a different culture to what they were used back in the UK it seems, and as a result thay have had to tone down much of what they say when in the company of Americans for fear of giving offence, and being taken the wrong way entirely by them. Many feel they have to be careful with what they say and how they say them much of the time as giving offence is the last thing they want to do in a country which isn't theirs.
As you will see in that website many Brits over there use the site to arrange meet-ups with other Brits who happen to be located in their area of the country (and what a vast country it is...it's so much easier here in the UK to meet up with people in similar circumstances..we're all so much closer to each other in comparative terms!) so they can get together and take "the piss out of each other" until they are blue in the face. If by any chance they can find any place over there even resembling a British style pub which has something anywhere near the same atmosphere and ambience of ours over here in abundance, then that's absolutely brilliant - the real deal! They're made up - to use a North of England expression.
They soon discovered that that using the same banter and pisstaking was very much a big no-no over there in many cases when they were in the company of their American friends or colleagues - it simply didn't work the same way as it does back here.
It was mainly for this very reason that the UK's TV personality Anne Robinson had her "Weakest Link" contract in America withdrawn after just one single series of "Weakest Link USA". She used exactly the same format for her show over there as she did, and still does, back here in the UK. That woman is not named "The Queen of Mean" for nothing, and although all those "insults" and "verbal put downs" and snide comments and remarks about the personal appearance or whetever about each contestant, male or female, and picking on and remarking about anything she sees about them or their jobs or whatever that she recognises as worthy of comment. I like the way she often asks a male contestant who is gay if he likes musicals! It's all taken in good spirits and it's never taken as being "offensive" or untoward in any way.
All that didn't go down well with the Americans at all apparently - too many of them took it the wrong way, and as a result the US TV company over there terminated her contract and she came back home, where her show still runs on BBC-1 TV eack weekday 17:15 - 18:00hrs.
Here is the link to yesterday's show - 25/03/09 - if you have 45 minutes to spare to see it right through to the end! Today's show hasn't been put on site it it seems.
I hope you like the accent of the female Scottish contestant! ;-)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mgvw
are u game and brilliant are used and certainly understood here too...
Well, Caspian, for me law is "lah" and lore is "lorrre". Totally different.
East Texans sound mildly pseudo-Southern, like George Bush. West Texans sound more GAE -- the western variety, of course. And hispanic Texans (a sizeable portion of the population) may either sound GAE or have a strong hispanic accent -- whether or not they speak much Spanish at all.
I have watched Brits taking the piss with each other. They seem to find it the height of wittiness. I wasn't particularly impressed with either the wit or the practice. Just a cultural thing. We don't do it because, well, we're heavily armed and not everyone gets the joke.... Just kidding. We call it "giving you shit" and it CAN be done between Americans on a limited basis -- best between close friends. But we don't consider it an art form. Just mild teasing. So we don't get as into it as you all do. And we also require different body language to accompany it, which is why your version misses the mark here -- you like to do it deadpan, whereas we usually smile or wink or use a playful tone to show that we're kidding around. The deadpan delivery tends to imply that one is being serious and really means it -- not so funny, then.
East Texans sound mildly pseudo-Southern, like George Bush. West Texans sound more GAE -- the western variety, of course. And hispanic Texans (a sizeable portion of the population) may either sound GAE or have a strong hispanic accent -- whether or not they speak much Spanish at all.
I have watched Brits taking the piss with each other. They seem to find it the height of wittiness. I wasn't particularly impressed with either the wit or the practice. Just a cultural thing. We don't do it because, well, we're heavily armed and not everyone gets the joke.... Just kidding. We call it "giving you shit" and it CAN be done between Americans on a limited basis -- best between close friends. But we don't consider it an art form. Just mild teasing. So we don't get as into it as you all do. And we also require different body language to accompany it, which is why your version misses the mark here -- you like to do it deadpan, whereas we usually smile or wink or use a playful tone to show that we're kidding around. The deadpan delivery tends to imply that one is being serious and really means it -- not so funny, then.
"it really is possible to tell the difference between "friendly banter" and deliberate rudeness, but perhaps you have to be British to be able to distinguish between one and the other."
Damian, I don't think I would be able to tell the difference. In fact, I'm SURE I couldn't tell the difference; here's why:
I only watched Anne Robinson's television show just once because it bothered me to see people abused—sliced, diced, and chopped up verbally like some kind of Ginzu knife. It was brutal to watch.
At least, that's how I perceived it then. Only yesterday, after reading the Brits Expats site, did I learn better...
Damian, I don't think I would be able to tell the difference. In fact, I'm SURE I couldn't tell the difference; here's why:
I only watched Anne Robinson's television show just once because it bothered me to see people abused—sliced, diced, and chopped up verbally like some kind of Ginzu knife. It was brutal to watch.
At least, that's how I perceived it then. Only yesterday, after reading the Brits Expats site, did I learn better...
"And we also require different body language to accompany it, which is why your version misses the mark here -- you like to do it deadpan, whereas we usually smile or wink or use a playful tone to show that we're kidding around. The deadpan delivery tends to imply that one is being serious and really means it -- not so funny, then."
Exactly correct.
Is this what they mean when they refer to a British 'dry sense of humor"? I've never understood that term.
Exactly correct.
Is this what they mean when they refer to a British 'dry sense of humor"? I've never understood that term.
So how come no one answers the original question? Why are you all so obsessed with accents? I mean, I don't have a problem with that at all as accents are quite interesting. The strange thing is that it is bordering on monomania. The ONLY thing that interests you is accents, when someone asks another question the posts are much less numerous, much lower in quality, fewer of the 'respected' posters reply, and the spam to good post ratio is much higher. It's rather curious, that's all.
The matter is this - when one says "accent" such in practice often really means "dialect" in general. It just happens that such is that phonology is generally the most obviously varying and transparent aspect of such, so it gets the most attention.
And why *should* one focus so much on dialects so much? Because dialects are what the general native-speaking population naturally speak, and the widespread speaking of standard varieties is usually an artificial condition brought about by things such as forced standardization (often combined with massive language variety loss or marginalization) or large-scale dialect levelling (generally through population movement). Standard languages hence should *not* be assumed to be the "normal" way normal native speakers speak, or would speak were it not for such factors. Standard languages tend to be at least somewhat artificial and are normally very well-documented, making them quite linguistically uninteresting, while dialects are almost invariably far more linguistically interesting. Hence it is best to leave being concerned with standard languages to people like ESL teachers and to treat them only as reference points useful primarily due to a lack of other reference points to use.
And why *should* one focus so much on dialects so much? Because dialects are what the general native-speaking population naturally speak, and the widespread speaking of standard varieties is usually an artificial condition brought about by things such as forced standardization (often combined with massive language variety loss or marginalization) or large-scale dialect levelling (generally through population movement). Standard languages hence should *not* be assumed to be the "normal" way normal native speakers speak, or would speak were it not for such factors. Standard languages tend to be at least somewhat artificial and are normally very well-documented, making them quite linguistically uninteresting, while dialects are almost invariably far more linguistically interesting. Hence it is best to leave being concerned with standard languages to people like ESL teachers and to treat them only as reference points useful primarily due to a lack of other reference points to use.