<<<I think most people are more likely to add an intrusive yod between /i:/ and the schwa.>>>
I mean after the /i:/...forget the schwa bit.
I mean after the /i:/...forget the schwa bit.
Rhotic vs. Non-Rhotic
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LIZ: "It's interesting. I doubt anyone would pronounce this word that way. I think most people are more likely to add an intrusive yod between /i:/ and the schwa. I've never heard anyone insert an intrusive are in these environments. It would just sound unnatural (at least, to me)."
Several of you have missed the point.
I suggested that each of you pronounce that word that way—in order to hear how jarring an intrusive "r" sounds to US. It was merely an exercise.
Nobody actually pronounces "diarrhea" that way in normal speech.
Several of you have missed the point.
I suggested that each of you pronounce that word that way—in order to hear how jarring an intrusive "r" sounds to US. It was merely an exercise.
Nobody actually pronounces "diarrhea" that way in normal speech.
I see what you mean, Jasper. But if it's not a possible pronunciation of the word, what's the point then? :-) You can't really hear how jarring (as you put it) it is because it sounds entirely different in such an environment than in the environments it's actually used. It sounds indeed excrutiating in words like you mentioned above, but completely natural in other cases when it really is commonly used. (At least to me, a non-rhotic speaker using intrusive r-s.)
It's akin to attempting to illustrate to an American how excrutiating flaps sound with an example like 'take'. As obviously no-one would replace the aspirated t with a flap in this word, the whole idea sounds a wee bit absurd, therefore you can't really judge whether flaps sound pleasant or unpleasant by this example only.
PS: I don't find flaps unpleasant at all, it was just an example.
It's akin to attempting to illustrate to an American how excrutiating flaps sound with an example like 'take'. As obviously no-one would replace the aspirated t with a flap in this word, the whole idea sounds a wee bit absurd, therefore you can't really judge whether flaps sound pleasant or unpleasant by this example only.
PS: I don't find flaps unpleasant at all, it was just an example.
"It sounds indeed excrutiating in words like you mentioned above, but completely natural in other cases when it really is commonly used. (At least to me, a non-rhotic speaker using intrusive r-s.) "
But the point, Liz, is that an intrusive "r" doesn't sound natural to us at all. In fact, as several American posters have noted in this thread, it sounds downright jarring.
But the point, Liz, is that an intrusive "r" doesn't sound natural to us at all. In fact, as several American posters have noted in this thread, it sounds downright jarring.
There's one other oddity of RP that I find both amusing and jarring.
You have to remember that in general I find RP beautiful, if cold and overly formal. With this in mind, the two oddities I find are the "intrusive 'r'" (already mentioned) and the pronunciation of the "u" sound in words like "stupid" and "tube".
I find it amusing because RP and Hillbilly English pronounce these words exactly the same, viz, "stew-pid" and "tyewb", rather than "stoo-pid" and "toob", like the rest of Americans. It's amusing to hear that RP speakers have this pronunciation in common with the rankest hillbillies, and when I hear it...it sounds jarring.
You have to remember that in general I find RP beautiful, if cold and overly formal. With this in mind, the two oddities I find are the "intrusive 'r'" (already mentioned) and the pronunciation of the "u" sound in words like "stupid" and "tube".
I find it amusing because RP and Hillbilly English pronounce these words exactly the same, viz, "stew-pid" and "tyewb", rather than "stoo-pid" and "toob", like the rest of Americans. It's amusing to hear that RP speakers have this pronunciation in common with the rankest hillbillies, and when I hear it...it sounds jarring.
JASPER:
I see. I was merely trying to point out that it's better to demonstrate the oddities of different accents with existing forms of words. :-) Otherwise it can be misleading.
I love the word Hillbilly...it sounds funny. Some non-rhotic American speakers wouldn't necessarily insist on being called Hillbillies, though...to say the least. :-)
Funnily enough, intrusive r hasn't always been acceptable in RP. There still is a sort of stigma attatched to it - it is still frowned upon by older, more conservative RP speakers. But even the poshest people use it instinctively in spontaneous speech, without noticing it. It's the sort of thing people claim not to use, but in fact, they do.
The 'u' sound you are talking about is the one used by younger British English speakers, I suppose, which is not particularly an RP feature. I guess older people still pronounce this sound like most Americans do. Correct me if I'm wrong - if you are thinking of a different sound.
Speaking of Hillbillies and RP, it seems to me that in the US rhoticism has a higher prestige (for want of a better word - as the US is more of a meritocracy than a class-ridden society). Am I right in thinking so?
I see. I was merely trying to point out that it's better to demonstrate the oddities of different accents with existing forms of words. :-) Otherwise it can be misleading.
I love the word Hillbilly...it sounds funny. Some non-rhotic American speakers wouldn't necessarily insist on being called Hillbillies, though...to say the least. :-)
Funnily enough, intrusive r hasn't always been acceptable in RP. There still is a sort of stigma attatched to it - it is still frowned upon by older, more conservative RP speakers. But even the poshest people use it instinctively in spontaneous speech, without noticing it. It's the sort of thing people claim not to use, but in fact, they do.
The 'u' sound you are talking about is the one used by younger British English speakers, I suppose, which is not particularly an RP feature. I guess older people still pronounce this sound like most Americans do. Correct me if I'm wrong - if you are thinking of a different sound.
Speaking of Hillbillies and RP, it seems to me that in the US rhoticism has a higher prestige (for want of a better word - as the US is more of a meritocracy than a class-ridden society). Am I right in thinking so?
Actually, the only time I find intrusive r-s weird is when people insert it between a first name and a family name. For example, as you mentioned Simon Cowell on another thread, he pronounces Paula Abdul's name as 'Paula Rabdul'. The funny thing about it that he gives a whole new name to the poor woman!
Oh...sorry...please ignore my remarks concerning the 'u' sound. T thought you were referring to the quality of the 'u' sound, not the yod or the abscence of it.
"Speaking of Hillbillies and RP, it seems to me that in the US rhoticism has a higher prestige (for want of a better word - as the US is more of a meritocracy than a class-ridden society). Am I right in thinking so?"
Liz, I might be the wrong person to ask; being 47, my information could be old.
Non-rhoticism was the preferred goal in such prestige dialects as Boston Brahmin, Locust Valley Lockjaw, and the more widely spoken Mid-Atlantic dialect, but these dialects are no longer being taught. (By the way, Mid-Atlantic English was beautiful, imho.) The Southern equivalent, taught in speech classes as a prestige dialect, was non-rhotic, but it, too, is no longer being taught.
Lazar, who lives in Massachusetts, would probably be able to shed more light on this issue than I.
Liz, I might be the wrong person to ask; being 47, my information could be old.
Non-rhoticism was the preferred goal in such prestige dialects as Boston Brahmin, Locust Valley Lockjaw, and the more widely spoken Mid-Atlantic dialect, but these dialects are no longer being taught. (By the way, Mid-Atlantic English was beautiful, imho.) The Southern equivalent, taught in speech classes as a prestige dialect, was non-rhotic, but it, too, is no longer being taught.
Lazar, who lives in Massachusetts, would probably be able to shed more light on this issue than I.
Liz, I knew one girl who had studied diction at the Juilliard School of Music. She'd gone to the school to perfect her singing, because she'd had aspirations to be an opera singer. Her teachers told her that singing in her native Texas accent just didn't cut it, so she endeavored to learn Standard American English. It was a grueling process.
Standard American English is similar but not identical to General American English. I can tell you that her English was notably clearer, better enunciated than most GA speakers, with the vowels somewhat lowered and the consonants clearly enunciated, but it was a rhotic dialect.
To be fair, the dialect she was taught did not profess to be a prestige dialect, merely a dialect suitable for singing...
Standard American English is similar but not identical to General American English. I can tell you that her English was notably clearer, better enunciated than most GA speakers, with the vowels somewhat lowered and the consonants clearly enunciated, but it was a rhotic dialect.
To be fair, the dialect she was taught did not profess to be a prestige dialect, merely a dialect suitable for singing...
Whomsoever named the intrusive R did so name it well.
I'm thinking about thinking of it as an R-bomb.
(poor, misunderstood Jasper, lol)
I'm thinking about thinking of it as an R-bomb.
(poor, misunderstood Jasper, lol)
Liz: the information you offered, viz., that old RP did not contain the intrusive 'r", is very interesting.
I watch a lot of old movies (circa 1930s) on Turner Classic Movies. The next time I see one made in England, I'll listen...
I watch a lot of old movies (circa 1930s) on Turner Classic Movies. The next time I see one made in England, I'll listen...
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