Iberian languages

<<Catalan is the language of future in Catalonia>>

Catalan is the language of the past because it wa smore widely spoken in 2003 than in 2008. According to your own data in 2003 it was spoken on an everyday basis by 50,70% and in 2008 by 47,60% .

<<It is the language speak most everyday in Catalonia for 47,6%>>

Spanish is spoken everyday by 53%, so Spanish is the most spoken language in Catalonia.

<<55,3% of the population of Catalonia identifies "with Catalan" >>

Ok, you can identify with Esperanto as well, but if you speak Spanish the language you speak is Spanish, not Esperanto . There is no country across the world in which they ask people the language they identify with aside from Catalonia (well, Catalonia is not a country, only a region), just to hide the fact Spanish is the most spoken language. If your mother tongue is Spanish and also Spanish is the language you speak everyday, you can hardly identify with any other language, but ok, keep on dreaming about the glorious future of Catalan, haha.

How silly can you possibly get. More people speak Catalan in 2008 than in 2003. We have received immigration all over Spain and Castilian-Spanish is less spoken now in Madrid that in 2003 because so many immigrants cannot speak Spanish.

Immigration is integrating in Catalan specially in most of the territory where Catalan is the language of the street (most of Catalonia).

Where does it say that Castilian Spanish is spoken by 53% of the population. They don't speak Catalan so they speak Spanish! Ha! Ha! This is how Castilian-Spaniards think. Que burrera!

You keep dreaming with a monolingual invasor Castilian-Spain. Let's have this conversation again in 20 years time. The fact is that being both Spaniards we are arguing in English. For me it's great because I am as fluent in English as I am in Spanish. Both these languages are "foreign" to me since I am only "native" in Catalan.

Outside of Barcelona and Tarragona -industrial areas- Catalan is by far the majority language and it is the majority language in many Tarragona and Barcelona middle and upper class suburbs too.

Who are you fooling? Why should you want Castilian to be the majority language outside of its historic territory? What to do you call that? Linguistic Imperialism?

<<How silly can you possibly get. More people speak Catalan in 2008 than in 2003>>

In absolute terms yes, but in relative terms Catalan is losing ground to Spanish. Do you know what percentages are?.

<<Immigration is integrating in Catalan specially in most of the territory where Catalan is the language of the street (most of Catalonia). >>

Another blatant lie from our die-hard Catalan nationalist. 80% of inmigrants in Catalonia prefer to speak Spanish: http://www.tolerancia.org/asp/index2.asp?area=area6&p=515&t=3

Hey, aren't you ashamed of lying that way? I know that you like Spanish to be erased from Catalonia but facts are facts and your desires will not change reality.

<<Where does it say that Castilian Spanish is spoken by 53% of the population.>>

So, if 47% of Catalans speak Catalan, what language do you think the rest of Catalans speak? Martian? Interlingua? Etruscan? Oh wait, maybe the another official language of Catalonia, Spanish, and also the most used one. In Barcelona the percentage of Hispanophones raises to 70%, not bad .

<<You keep dreaming with a monolingual invasor Castilian-Spain. Let's have this conversation again in 20 years time.>> LOL, I 'll have better things to do by then, but extrapolating the data we have now if Catalan has lost 3 % in 5 years, then in 2028 it will be spoken by 35% . Being realistic giving the furious birth rate of some Hispanophones like the South Americans I would say that nobody will speak Catalan in 2028.

<<I am as fluent in English as I am in Spanish. Both these languages are "foreign" to me since I am only "native" in Catalan. >>
Good for you, but I bet you speak way better Spanish than English.


<<Outside of Barcelona and Tarragona -industrial areas- Catalan is by far the majority language >>

Outside of Barcelona and Tarragona there are only pigs and peasants, who cares what they speak, most of Catalans live in these zones and they speak Spanish natively.

Catalan sounds like Spanish.
Breton sounds like French.
Frisian sounds like Dutch.
Basque sounds almost like Spanish.
Irish Gaelic sounds pretty much like English.
Finnish sounds a little bit like Swedish.
Italian dialects are poorly mutually intelligible but they all sound like Italian.

Simple facts. This is a normal and predictable phenomenon of areal phonetic assimilation.

My mother is Brazilian Portuguese and to her, Catalan sounds just like Spanish. She seems to think it is only Catalans who convince themselves that their language sounds different even though to most foreigners it doesn't have too different of a sound structure than castilian, Though I do have to say that I am curious to hear that many features of Catalan pronunciation are shared with Latin American Spanish and not Castilian.

Italian dialects are poorly mutually intelligible but they all sound like Italian.


have you ever heard them? Probably not....

Dear JCreco:

I suppose Scottish English would sound just like American English to your Brazilian Portuguese mother. It doesn't say much, does it?
Frankly how is it your Brazilian mother understands Catalan Television and Castilian-Spaniards don't. Perhaps it's because your mother neither understands Castilian nor Catalan and this is why she can't tell the difference? By the way, no hard feelings and say hello to your mum.

To Guests and others:

It's just unbelievable how biased people are in this thread. Catalans are nationalists and Castilians aren't? Who is invading who? If 50% of the population speaks Catalans must I understand that 10% of the population that has arrived from other continents in the past few years now speak Castilian? Come off it and let's wait for the next poll and see what happens.

Thousands of South American immigrants are now going back to their countries because of the crisis: in Madrid, in Barcelona, in Valencia. Young children are being taught Catalan at schools whether you like it or not. hat will they speak in the future? I know lots of young Moroccans, Nigerians and Chinese people who speak Catalan everyday in many Catalan towns and cities.

Only pigs and peasants outside Barcelona, according to a nice comment nobody will say anything against?

Please allow me to go down to your toilet level just once. You don't need to get out of Madrid to find the same, may I answer in your own insulting petty tone and way? Of course, not! La Hidalguía Castellana thinks they are above the rest of mortals, even their own people.

So, let me understand some of you. We have no sound structure, we are a minority language, we are Spanish, Spanish meaning Castilian Spanish except in Spain where everybody worries about us.

In Spain, of course, we sound absolutely different, a Catalan candidate to the Spanish State is a far more difficult issue than a Black African candidate, who now is, by the way, the President of the USA. A Catalan president of Spain? Dios mío, My God, Déu meu in Catalan far closer to its Latin roots!

Would people in Madrid, Valladolid or Burgos vote a Catalan Spanish Nationalist with a Catalan accent and Catalan intonation!

Of course not, maybe a couple of ministries or send them to Brussels to fight against their own people, like some well known cases.

You can't trustt a president with a Catalan pitch, a lilt and "l" and "ll" which are absolutely different amongst other well known facts, which need an essay.

Go a to good Romance languagescs page if your'e interested.

I can certainly tell a Castilian accent when they speak in Catalan and the flatness of Central Castilian has nothing to do with the lilt of Andalusian Castilian.

We have many first generation Catalan speakers who speak this way and they sound as foreign in Catalan as Arnold Swcharznegger when speaking English with an Austrian accent as Governor of California.

This is the case of the Catalan President, José Montilla, born in Cordoba in Southern Spain, who arrived in Catalonia as a young adult. We are pleased to see so many non-Catalans embrace our language and culture and we can have a Castilian-Spanish become our president if he adopts the language and customs of the land. It's been done.


Should a Catalan want to be President of the Kingdom of Spain the comment in the Castiles and "New Castiles" in plural will be "poor guy/lady, such a great fellow/dame but what a pity you can still hear he's/she's Catalan!"

Regarding my level of Castilian-Spanish and English I can say the latter is getting better than the former since it is a matter of practice.

I don't practice my Castilian as much as I practice my Catalan. I live in a big town of 100.000 people where 90% of the population speaks Catalan and only Catalan in the streets. I haven't seen neither pigs nor peasants in the street of Girona. Have you seen any in Salamanca?

I'm near the French border so I also practice my French more often than I practice my Spanish. I hear Spanish but I don't practice it much. There is no hard feeling just the same way Spaniards near the Portuguese border don't practice their Portuguese and expect the neighbouring Portuguese to speak to them in Castilian.

It even happens in Lisbon with Castilian-Spanish tourists who are pissed of if they are answered in English. Why should the Portuguese know Castilian?

It would only take one generation for Catalans to speak better English than Castilian. We've been through that before and our phonetic system would help us a lot more.

Castilian-Spanish Imperialists stay home!

Hace unos cinco años, estando de viaje de negocios, con unos amigos mallorquines, en Bregenz, Austria, en un comercio el encargado, al oirnos hablar entre nosotros y en nuestro catalán, nos dijo, con una sonrisa de entendido: "Sé de dónde sois: sois finlandeses".

Años atrás, en Bilbao, los amigos que me habían invitado me presentaron a un grupo de amigos suyos. Naturalmente, les hablé en español. Una de aquellas personas, una mujer, me estaba mirando con los ojos muy abiertos hasta que, por fin, me dijo: "Perdona, pero es que no entiendo el inglés". Más recientemente, un señor recién llegado a Mallorca desde Madrid afirmaba que yo era... serbio.

Anécdotas de esas me han sucedido, y han sucedido a conocidos míos, muchas veces. Unos andaluces me dijeron, textualmente: "Es que el castellano y el catalán suenan como la noche y el día: es que no se os pesca ni una, con esas eles y esas vocales tan raras. Se entiende mucho mejor el italiano".

Tenemos, de momento, una gran población de lengua española que, aunque habla catalán, lo pronuncia según sus hábitos fonéticos. Como participan en programas de radio, televisión, etc., nada tiene de extraño que su fonética recuerde mucho la del castellano. Un ejemplo de ello es el presidente Montilla, que conserva el acento e incluso la pronunciación de su villa nativa de Iznájar. Pero también se oye mucho catalán con acento marroquí, búlgaro, etc.

Quien afirme que "el catalán suena como el castellano" es porque desea que así sea. En estos tiempos de furia migratoria, pueden oirse los acentos más variados, y eso en toda Europa.

Más de una vez he oído, en boca de españoles, que el catalán y el español tienen las fonéticas más opuestas posible.

Por lo que respecta al gallego, capto en casa la televisión gallega. Desde luego que ciertas locutoras tienen un acento y una pronunciación que parecen castellanos: parece evidente que son castellanoparlantes y que, en cuanto salen del estudio, dejan el gallego y se pasan al español. Por el contrario, conozco gallegos, aquí mismo en Mallorca, que pronuncian su lengua con toda corrección (aunque conmigo hablan catalán). Recientemente, en un bar, coincidimos, con un amigo gallego, yo y un portugués del norte, concretamente de Amarante. La lengua de comunicación fue el portugués (que hablo "bastante bem", con el sentido que "bastante" tiene en portugués, que corresponde al español "muy"). Costaba distinguir al portugués del gallego: tan similares eran sus fonéticas, sus entonaciones, sus articulaciones.

No tengo costumbre de hablar español. En Mallorca raramento (rarísimamente) lo necesito, y ello en cualquier medio. Mi carrera es de titulación superior y, precisamente en mi medio, es en donde la lengua española brilla por su ausencia. Diría que más veces me ocurre hablar alemán que castellano.

En fin, sería interesante que las contestaciones, en este foro, aumentaran algo su nivel intelectual y de buenas intenciones cuando provienen de "hispanoparlantes", és decir lo que en Mallorca llamamos "forasters".

Supongo que, semanas atrás, leerían las estadísticas sobre el estado de la lengua, particularmente en los exámenes de selectividad. Me parecieron muy interesantes. Se trata de un trabajo serio que muestra cómo el catalán va ganando terreno en todos los aspectos, particularmente con la vuelta a casa de una buena parte de inmigrantes sudamericanos (lo que no ha hecho sino empezar, porque esta crisis va a ser larga y obligará a reconsiderar el modelo de crecimiento que ha imperado hasta ahora).

Como oí decir, hace ahora unos cuatro años, a una señora argentina a otra de su misma nacionalidad: "Es que cuando hablas catalán se te abren todas las puertas". La conversación tenía lugar en una oficina de empadronamiento, en Palma. Tenía razón: igual como yo, un número creciente de empresarios, por lo menos en nuestra isla, exige, como condición necesaria, que los candidatos a entrar en su negocio hablen catalán.

Me temo que los "hispanofagocitadores" lingüísticos tienen un porvenir más bien negro en nuestro país. Lo siento por la frustración que les provocará y que, desde luego, ya les está provocando. Hemos resistido a unas oleadas inmigratorias como pocos países han soportado en el mundo (no siquiera países americanos en sus momentos de más intensa inmigración). No tiene nada de extraño que, entre nosotros, haya (dependiendo de las zonas) una presencia fortísima del español. Pero lean y estudien, por favor, las estadísticas más recientes, especialmente por lo que a las tendencias asimilatorias se refiene.

Y ahórrense los insultos, que no hacen sinó rebajar al que los profiere. Hagan ese esfuerzo, por favor, por mucho que entre en conflicto con sus tendencias más profundas.

Autrement je vais continuer d'écrire en français. Continuaré amb els meus missatges en francès o en català.

If you compare FRench, Italian,Spanish, Portuguese and Catalan I'd say that CAtalan is the ugliest one... try to listen to that link above. Catalan accent and intonation are so awful... sorry but I think so I don't want to offend anyboby and Spanish is not my mother tongue

[ʒ]: "j" in Jardin, beautiful.

[dʒ]: "g" in Giardino, beautiful too.

[X]: "j" in Jardín, like guttural "h", sounds a little harsh.

[ʒ]: "j" in Jardin (French), beautiful.

[dʒ]: "g(i)" in Giardino (Italian), beautiful too.

[X]: "j" in Jardín (Spanish), like guttural "h", sounds a little harsh.

[ʑ]: "j" in Jardí (Catalan), also beautiful.

In some cases one can reduce Castillian as a language of bastard pig farmers who ironically come from muslim descent.

How do you pronounce "Jardín"(J=[ʒ]?) in Brazilian Portuguese?

It could be, but in short, Spanish is a World language, spoken by 420 million as mother tongue, and Catalan is a regional language spoken by 4.4 million as mother tongue.

I read in a report that if Barcelona bet for Spanish language, more than for Catalan, Barcelona would be a very, very important city.

For example, almost all European and American students of Spanish would choose Barcelona. Nowadays, they prefer to go to Madrid, Zaragoza, Valencia, Bilbao, Valladolid or Salamanca, for instance.

A lot of European, Japanese and American companies prefer to set up in Madrid than in Barcelona because of the language.

Catalonia will have a lot of young people that don't speak Spanish properly. I think, we will see some of them going to Zaragoza 2 months to improve Spanish because they don't speak it well. Some parents will take into account at that moment that their children only speak a regional language. (they will speak bad Spanish and English).

The easiest way to have a bilingual society is to have the same rights to both languages. That is very easy: half of the subjects at school in Spanish (History, Maths, and Language, for example) and half of them in Catalan (the others).

Half of the newspapers, cinemas, books, etc in Spanish and half in Catalan. Finally, all the signals in Spanish and Catalan. Even in English some of them.

And don't listen to the politicians of ERC and PP, please. The language is a wonderful to tool to speak to other people, not a gun.

If you choose that way, the problem is over

We need catalan and english.