Whenever possible, use words with Germanic roots, not French

Guest   Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:55 am GMT
I saw this advise a couple of times in guides on how to write articles or essays. I can't recall the exact names of these publications, but they were pretty respected, written by journalists and editors.

Is that really the case? Or can one use a healthy mix of both? To be honest, I find the French (or Latin) based words much easier to use and remember than the Germanic ones.
impotent   Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:10 am GMT
I think it's the other way around. When I was at high school the unspoken rule was that the mark was directly proportional to the number of big Latin words used. It worked every time.
just me   Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:52 am GMT
Yes, I think english speaking peoples (and germanic speaking peoples in general) should stop being germanic-ashamed. There is no rational reason to think that latin-based words are somehow culturally superior to the germanic ones. English is a germanic-based language that doesn't need to use more french words when the same also exist in the english vocablary.

I think each language should try to keep itself being what it is, and not try to pass for being what they aren't. The charm of germanic cultures is hidden in their germanicness. They don't need to use many latin/french words to feel more secure with they cultural lightning. Nobody would feel attracted to english for the words it borrowded from french, what makes english what it is, is its very germanic core.



" To be honest, I find the French (or Latin) based words much easier to use and remember than the Germanic ones. "

The germanic words are the heart of the english speech. knowing them is much more important than knowing the latinate words, which are often 'doublets' (words that already exist in english) or conceptual words (english could make those conceptual words by agglomerating germanic words as german does).
Robin Michael   Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:32 am GMT
What this is about is that Anglo-Saxon Britain was conquered by the Normans. Consequently being 'Frank' was used in Court and French became the language that people had to speak.

This is what I have been told anyway. That the names for the animals were Anglo Saxon, but the types of meat were French. So the poor old Anglo Saxons had to look after the animals while the French speaking minority had the privilege of eating them.

Therefore if you wanted to sound like an educated person you spoke in French. If you wanted to sound like a peasant, you spoke in a German language. Ironically, now when people swear, they say, "Pardon my French".

I think this is the reason why English has such a rich vocabulary, it has effectively two or more words for everything. So, you can make your point 'politely' or 'forcefully'.

'Excuse me! I am coming through!'

or

'Pardon me! I thought I was in a civilized part of the world.'

My father recently said, that he can remember when a Dorset farm labourer spoke 'pure Anglo-Saxon'!

Pure Anglo-Saxon!
stilleto   Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:35 am GMT
<<Yes, I think english speaking peoples (and germanic speaking peoples in general) should stop being germanic-ashamed. There is no rational reason to think that latin-based words are somehow culturally superior to the germanic ones. English is a germanic-based language that doesn't need to use more french words when the same also exist in the english vocablary.

I think each language should try to keep itself being what it is, and not try to pass for being what they aren't. The charm of germanic cultures is hidden in their germanicness. They don't need to use many latin/french words to feel more secure with they cultural lightning. Nobody would feel attracted to english for the words it borrowded from french, what makes english what it is, is its very germanic core.
>>


You are entirely wrong. Using Latin words has nothing whatsoever to do with being ashamed. Do you want to know why? Because the vast majority of people have no idea which words are Germanic and which are Latin. Lots of people don't even know that English is Germanic, or if they do, it's just a term that means nothing. Maybe at one time historically there was such ashamedness, but nowadays the difference is not one of "pompous Latin words" vs. "ordinary Germanic words", but rather a difference of "pompous English words" vs. "ordinary English words".

When I was in high school and started learning Spanish ALL of the kids were like "what the hell, why are there so many English words in Spanish! This is so stupid, they just stole English words and put tildes on them!" They were literally amazed to learn that those were actually borrowed into English too and never imagined otherwise.
.   Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:46 am GMT
Origin of words


Pork: Web definitions for pork
meat from a domestic hog or pig


pork n. The flesh of a pig or hog used as food.

* Main Entry: pork
* Pronunciation: \ˈpȯrk\
* Function: noun
* Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French porc pig, from Latin porcus — more at farrow
* Date: 14th century

1 : the fresh or salted flesh of swine when dressed for food



PIG: Web definitions for pig
hog: domestic swine

* Main Entry: 1pig
* Pronunciation: \ˈpig\
* Function: noun
* Usage: often attributive
* Etymology: Middle English pigge
* Date: 13th century

1 a : a young domesticated swine not yet sexually mature; broadly : a wild or domestic swine b : an animal related to or resembling the pig
2 a : pork b : the dressed carcass of a young swine weighing less than 130 pounds (60 kilograms) c : pigskin
3 : a dirty, gluttonous, or repulsive person
4 : a crude casting of metal (as iron)
5 slang : an immoral woman
6 slang usually disparaging : police officer

— pig·like \-ˌlīk\ adjective


So, it is quite clear that when you are talk about 'Pork' (French word) you are talking about meat. However when you are talking about a 'Pig' (German) word, you could be talking about a Police Officer, or something crude and nasty.


Swine: The male is specifically called boar, the female, sow.

* Main Entry: swine
* Pronunciation: \ˈswīn\
* Function: noun
* Inflected Form(s): plural swine
* Etymology: Middle English, from Old English swīn; akin to Old High German swīn swine, Latin sus — more at sow
* Date: before 12th century

1 : any of various stout-bodied short-legged omnivorous artiodactyl mammals (family Suidae) with a thick bristly skin and a long flexible snout; especially : a domesticated one descended from the wild boar

2 : a contemptible person

GooGle: 'pig' Etymology

Pig Etymology

Pig Etymology. The word pig has many origins. It comes from the Anglo Saxon word pecga, and the Log German word bigge, both meaning pig. ...



Breakfast is ready - I must go!
Robin Michael   Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:08 am GMT
Hog

Road Hog

Boar

Bore

Swine

"You Swine!"

Sow

(Can you imagine a more cutting insult to a pregnant woman?)

-German word bigge, both meaning pig

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, lets think of a few Scots, Celtic, and Pictish words. There must be something in Gaelic for 'Pig'?
sinagogue   Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:26 am GMT
Every language has its formal register and its informal register. That the formal register in English consists mainly of words of Latin origin is really just a historical quirk. Nothing to get upset over.
Caspian   Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:09 am GMT
I think this is a very interesting topic.

@Robin Michael: The Irish (Gaelic) word for pic is 'muc'.
Robert   Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:27 pm GMT
"Whenever possible..."

Why not "whenever you can..." ?
Guest   Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:29 pm GMT
Germanic words are all the same, because they have many t, h and w. I prefer the Romance words cause they are more classy.
just me   Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:06 am GMT
" Romance words cause they are more classy "

Why romance words should be more "classy"?? there is nothing more classy about romance words than about greek, german, slavic japanese of chinese words...

romance words are "classy" only from a germanic point of view (english to be more precise). In the romance languages, our words are not "classy" at all. I am a bit fed up of seing english speakers considering that latin-based words are somehow of upper culture, or show some sort of superiority to germanic ones. This is not the point of view that ourselves (romance speakers) have about our own words. They(re just words, our words, that we have affective relations with, byt are in no way a mark of a snobbish intellectual culture.

I see that many english-speakers tend to think of french people as a snobbish people... that doesn't fit at all in the reality. In reality the ones they tend to think as "snobs" were the english peoples of the upper class that tended to use many french words. So in many people's mind a relation was born: french/latin things=snobish, germanic things=uncultured. Of course this had maybe a reality back in the old days of England, but to extend (more of less consciently) that clivage to the french culture of France is absurd. like many cultures our culture is not more "classy" than others. French is the language e use to insult, to say bad words as much as to speak about technical or romantical things...

Using romance words doesn't make one language superior to another? I think many english speaker should begin to be more aware of that. and assumer there heritage for what it is.
anglo   Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:05 am GMT
<<romance words are "classy" only from a germanic point of view (english to be more precise). In the romance languages, our words are not "classy" at all.>>


We don't give a shit about whether they are classy in Romance languages. In English THEY ARE classy. These words have their own identity in English and they don't care about their origins.


<<I am a bit fed up of seing english speakers considering that latin-based words are somehow of upper culture, or show some sort of superiority to germanic ones.>>


So you are fed up with reality? In French there are also words which are only used in writing and would sound pompous in a conversation, it just happens that they are of Romance origin. But it's exactly the same situation, how does it matter what the origin is? It's either a formal word or an informal word. Most English speakers don't even know which words are Latin and which are Germanic, so it's just irrelevant.


<<This is not the point of view that ourselves (romance speakers) have about our own words. They(re just words, our words, that we have affective relations with, byt are in no way a mark of a snobbish intellectual culture. >>

Except we don't care about what those words mean in your languages. English is a DIFFERENT language and those words have DIFFERENT meanings.


<<
I see that many english-speakers tend to think of french people as a snobbish people... that doesn't fit at all in the reality. In reality the ones they tend to think as "snobs" were the english peoples of the upper class that tended to use many french words. So in many people's mind a relation was born: french/latin things=snobish, germanic things=uncultured.>>


Sorry, but what does France have to do with English words of Latin origin? Do you think that we think of France when we use a Latinate word? LOL! Well, we DON'T think of France when we use English, sorry to break it to you.
just me   Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:36 pm GMT
" We don't give a shit about whether they are classy in Romance languages. In English THEY ARE classy. These words have their own identity in English and they don't care about their origins. "

conscientously you might not care about the origin, but in the reality it is a fact (even if you of course are not aware of it most of the time) that among words used in English, the ones that are seen as "classy" are the ones borrowded from a romance language (french in most cases), while the "neutral terms" are the native english ones.



" So you are fed up with reality? In French there are also words which are only used in writing and would sound pompous in a conversation"

In french a lot of people use english words instead of french ones, just to sound "cooler"... I find it not a good thing either.




" it just happens that they are of Romance origin."

well in the exemple I gave you those were words borrowded from English, a germanic language.




" But it's exactly the same situation, how does it matter what the origin is? It's either a formal word or an informal word. Most English speakers don't even know which words are Latin and which are Germanic, so it's just irrelevant. "

it is the English language itself that cares about the origin very much (thru its speakers, even if it not conscious), beacaus there is a direct relation in english between the fact that a word is "pompous" and the fact that it has been borrowded from another language.




" Sorry, but what does France have to do with English words of Latin origin? "

It is the place from where they were borrowded from, didn't you know that?




" Do you think that we think of France when we use a Latinate word? LOL! Well, we DON'T think of France when we use English, sorry to break it to you. "

well, "cool", "week-end", "marketing", etc. are use in french by everybody... that doesn't mean we think they are french words! everybody knows they are english words borrowded from English.
Guest   Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:58 pm GMT
It's funny to see Romance speakers saying what words the English speakers must use and what not.