Percentage of Rhotic and Non-Rhotic speakers?

Uriel   Sat Sep 19, 2009 5:02 am GMT
No, that was really me and not Adam. Gah! Go wash your mouth out with soap!

But I have been reading a lot of articles, which I will attempt to paraphrase rather than excerpt directly -- point taken!:

This article, http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002847.php , cites some reasons why American English was already noticeably diverging from British speech well before the revolutionary period. In Britain, dialectical variation was closely tied to social standing. In other words, the aristocracy spoke differently from the common people. Well, aristocrats simply did not up stakes and head out for the hard life in the New World with too much frequency. So their linguistic styles were pretty much absent from the colonies, along with any pressure to emulate them. As Americans were descended mainly from middle and lower-class British immigrants, that was how they spoke, and pronunciations that were considered very inferior in the UK and frowned upon became commonplace in the colonies, with no sense of shame attached.

The examples that the article gives strike me as very old-fashioned and somewhat Southern -- not surprising, since American Southern dialects are very conservative. Seems to be more of a vowel shift, like a pen-pin merger going on here:

"Because English speech marked social station, the general absence of upper-class Britons from transatlantic migration inhibited direct transplantation of elite social dialects. As a result, individuals in every colonial region and, more to the point, all social ranks employed speech forms that Britons of higher status thought vulgar. For example, many colonials pronounced cover as kivver, engine as ingine, yesterday as yisterday, yes as yis, and Sarah as Sary. In Britain, these pronunciations marked lower social status; in America, they became stylistic variants among individuals of every rank and region, not simply indicators of class. The inability of colonial speech to replicate the full range of idioms that registered the British social hierarchy was another form of leveling..."

The article also notes that because British emigrants to America came from all over the UK, the various dialects of the mother country began to merge into a homogenous blend. Well mostly, anyway. One British visitor pointed out a certain glaring exception that still exists to this day: "No County or Colonial dialect is to be distinguished here, except it be the New Englanders, who have a sort of whining cadence that I cannot describe.”

But were they rhotic? Robert MacNeil, in Do You Speak American, says that many early colonists weren't, but a key group was -- the Scots-Irish. Since they were latecomers to the colonies and relatively poor, they settled mainly in Philadelphia and farther inland on the crappy land that hadn't already been taken, and their accent was the one that made it inland, away from the less rhotic coasts. (They also get blamed for introducing a twangy quality.)

However, I came across some articles on colonial Australian and New Zealand speech that looked at old recordings of very old first generation Aussies and Kiwis, probably born in the mid-19th century to British emigrant parents and thus closer to the British spectrum of pronunciation, and found, to the authors' surprise, that many of these elderly people were far more rhotic than expected -- rhoticity had apparently survived longer in many parts of the UK than suspected, and the nonrhoticity of modern New Zealanders can't entirely be contributed to the speech patterns of their earliest ancestors!

But back to early Americans -- this article, http://www.bartleby.com/185/12.html , notes that there were a lot of pronunciations in colonial America that would be unheard of today -- full pronunciation of the L in would and the W in sword, deaf rhyming with leaf (this does survive in elderly hillbilly accents), and the preservation of -ar for -er, which we now think of as being a mainly British idiosyncracy (although we still have the variant "varmint" for "vermin", which follows the same pattern as the British fondness for saying derby as "darby" and "clark" for clerk).

Some things that immediately mark North American speech were noted by British visitors shortly after the War of 1812:

"The word does is split into two syllables, and pronounced do-es. Where, for some incomprehensible reason, is converted into whare, there into thare; and I remember, on mentioning to an acquaintance that I had called on a gentleman of taste in the arts, he asked “whether he shew (showed) me his pictures.” Such words as oratory and dilatory are pronounced with the penult syllable long and accented; missionary becomes missionairy, angel, ângel, danger, dânger, etc."
Damian Notting Hill W11   Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:02 pm GMT
If Uriel ever returned to the UK I'd so love to meet her off the plane at Heathrow - or Gatwick perhaps? Imagine putting all this Antimoon dialogue into a good chat together using actual spoken words, and in our respective accents, too! The very first insistent request I would put to her is that she visits Edinburgh and elsewhere in Scotland next time round.

We native speakers of English have a responsibility to all the Antimooners who are not native speakers and who use this site as a means of improving their skills in the language - it's incumbent on us to ensure we write clearly and concisely in correct English....Uriel fulfills* that role perfectly.

I'm pretty certain she isn't an Arian.

*I use the American spelling here, seeing as I'm referring to Uriel here.
Uriel   Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:43 am GMT
Last time I landed at Gatwick, so Heathrow would be more fun the second time around -- but don't they have airports in Edinborough?
Damian London E14   Mon Sep 21, 2009 7:34 am GMT
Oh, Uriel......!!! It's EdinBURGH! I'm so desolate.......I do hope you'll pronounce it correctly once you are there at least, and not in the way so many Americans tend to do....no other nationality pronounces it the way they do, for some reason. EDDIN-burrow is one big no-no! Try EDDIN-bruh! ;-)

"Burgh" is the Scottish English equivalent of the English English "borough", meaning the same thing.....basically a town of municipal significance....historially one that has been granted a Royal Charter.....don't ask - without posting an explanatory link it would take for ever to explain in detail...you know how long-winded we Brits are.

Of course EdinBURGH has an international airport but most of its flights are to and from UK and European airports. The only North American flights to and from EdinBURGH are to New York JFK, New York Newark or Toronto.

Landing at Edinburgh airport.....coming in from over the Firth of Forth estuary flowing out into the North Sea......at one point you can see the area where my family home is located.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW3eIIx4YKE&feature=related

Suddenly I feel just a wee bit homesick.....
Travis   Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:26 pm GMT
Actually, how I myself would normally pronounce it as "EDINburg" [ˈɜːɨ̯nb̥ʁ̩ːg̥]~[ˈɜːɾɨ̃ːnb̥ʁ̩ːg̥̥]; it is normal in much of North American English, and certainly around here in Wisconsin, to use the non-Anglic Germanic suffix "-burg" rather than the Anglic suffix "-borough"/"-burgh"/"-boro".
Robin Michael   Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:01 pm GMT
Elvis of course, landed at Prestwick (Glasgow), which is one of the best airports in Scotland.


I am always inclined to mispell 'Prestwick' as Prestwich, which is the spelling more typical of Cheshire.

Prestwich

Manchester, Lancashire, UK

(near Cheshire)


Other towns in Cheshire are

Middlewich and Nantwich which are pronounced 'Middlwitch' and 'Nantwitch'. All very confusing!

There is also 'Sandbach' pronounced 'Sandbatch'.



1960 - Elvis Presley stops off at Prestwick
Hundreds of screaming teenagers drowned the noise of jet engines when Sergeant Elvis (the Pelvis) Presley flew into Prestwick last night. ...

www.nls.uk/scotlandspages/timeline/1960.html - Cached - Similar
Damian Putney SW15   Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:35 pm GMT
Travis - I realise that that the American pronunciation of the Scottish "burgh" does equate to just "burg" - as in the German Hamburg - the suffix for both Hamburg and Edinburgh have the same meaning anyway, as I explained earlier. After all you do have your very own Pittsburg(h) anyway, don't you?

Americans are perfectly at liberty to pronounce Edinburgh the same way - Edinburg - or even Edinburrow if that's even easier - the last thing we Scots would ever wish upon you is confusion, but it really would be nice (for us anyway) if you guys could pronounce it the same way as we do, along with all the rest of the Brits, when you are over here, especially in the REAL original Edinburgh itself! ;-)

Although she is difficult to understand if you are not familiar with the accent, you can make out the Scottish air hostess on board that flight saying "Welcome to Edinburgh" - the proper way!

Those British place names ending with "-wich", particularly - also with the less common "-wych" - this suffix is derived from the Latin "vicus", meaning simply a place, but in time those placename endings applied to settlements in areas where common salt was mined in abundance, as throughout the Roman period, and indeed most other civilisations throughout history, salt was a very precious commodity.

The Romans discovered salt in abundance in what is now Cheshire, in North West England, and as a result towns with names like Middlewich, Nantwich and Northwich sprang up due to the mining of salt around that part of the country.

Further south, in what is now Worcestershire, the town of Droitwich was built around the salt mines, and even today some of the mediaeval black and white timbered buildings still standing in Droitwich town centre today are leaning at quite amazing angles during to subsidence occurring above the former salt mines over the years past. Obviously they still meet at the very least minimum public Health and Safety regulations in 21st century Britain otherwise they would have been demolished if they posed any kind of danger of collapse.

Down in the very extreme south east corner of England there is the town of Sandwich, in East Kent - very close to the spot where the Romans, led by Julius Caesar, first set foot on this island in 55BC - the Romans discovered salt there also....and so Sandwich came into being.

Many years later an English aristocrat with the title the Earl of Sandwich (linked to the town, of course) thought it would be a good idea to place some meats between two slices of what passed for bread in his day - it made for a quick and easy lunch - and hence the ordinary sandwich was born, as he gave his name to the snack we now all love and enjoy the world over.
Damian SW15   Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:38 pm GMT
***leaning at quite amazing angles during to subsidence***

That should of course read "owing to subsidence"
Uriel   Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:17 am GMT
See? You've spent so much time drumming the pronunciation into our heads that now I have no idea how to spell it....

Pittsburgh (yes, pronounced largely as spelled) is one of the few American cities that still has the H on the end of it. There used to be a lot more, but at some point a concerted effort was made to standardize all the endless variations, and most burghs got changed to -burgs, while the -boroughs all ended up as -boros. Only a few places that were already too well-known as they were escaped unscathed!
Travis   Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:29 am GMT
Around here at least, I am much more familiar with placenames of the form "-burg" (as in the nearby city of Cedarburg) rather than those of the form "-boro(ugh)" or "-burgh", which are practically nonexistent here.
Uriel   Tue Sep 22, 2009 6:49 am GMT
Okay, flying into El Paso International Airport basically looks a lot like flying into dirt ("El Paso -- just add water!") so I will spare you that experience. I think you can only fly internationally into El Paso from points south -- whenever I've flown overseas, I had to go from El Paso to Houston to Atlanta to ... you get the picture.

But once you get past the gates and mosey up I-10 out of the Lone Star State and into the Land of Entrapment -- I mean, Enchantment -- this is what you get: stunning southern New Mexico. The video only claims to show Las Cruces ("the Crosses") and Alamogordo ("Cottonwood"), but this is my back yard and I know better -- that's also White Sands in the first shot, the Rio Grande, and later Highway 82 wending its way out of Alamogordo up the Sacramento Mountains to the tiny and often snowbound village of Cloudcroft* (almost 9000 ft above seal level, or close to 3000 m), with its breathtaking view of White Sands spread out below as you hit the tunnel halfway up, and the ruined train trestle right outside of the village. Spent many a weekend up there to escape the desert heat -- you see how it's almost a different world, with its lush trees and meadows and horses and wild elk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yTP2ud1FS8

*As a Scot, Damian should be more familiar with the term "croft" than most -- it means a small tenant farm, given legal standing in Scotland after the Highland Clearances -- one of the major causes of the early waves of Scottish immigrants to America.
Damian SW15   Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:28 pm GMT
Uriel - I am very impressed, not only with all you've told us but also with your knowledge of Scotland.......so much so I can easily forgive your spelling transgression....not to worry.

New Mexico would be a dramatic experience for me and no doubt a very pleasant one.....we truly are half a world apart in that sense, aren't we? I remember a film shown to us in school about nature and wildlife in general in the desertlands of the south west United States. On the face of it - hot, arid, parched and seemingly lifeless, until you really look closely....with the aid of first class camera work.....the place is teeming with life, some of it harmless, some of it highly venomous, and after one of those violent storms the whole place blossomed forth with cactus flowers and plants of every colour...it was amazing.

OK.....let's talk language, as we are duty bound so to do in here......let's take your average New Mexican, of any racial or social backgound, but one who is fluent in Spanish, as I'm sure many are in NM.....let's fly them over to Europe......to Spain itself, ensuring that he or she has never been to Spain before. Bearing in mind the many regional dialects that exist in a large country like Spain....and even a separate language in effect, in the form of Catalan....how do you think our New Mexican would get along down there...let's assume they are in the very south of thje country, in Andalucia, to my mind the most attractive part of Spain.

Do you think our American friend would encounter any linguistic difficulties at all? Would his or her New Mexican Spanish be all that much different from Andalucian Spanish? I suppose it would be similar to your average American chatting up Brits in English here in the UK.
resh   Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:35 am GMT
<<OK.....let's talk language, as we are duty bound so to do in here......let's take your average New Mexican, of any racial or social backgound, but one who is fluent in Spanish, as I'm sure many are in NM.....let's fly them over to Europe......to Spain itself, ensuring that he or she has never been to Spain before. Bearing in mind the many regional dialects that exist in a large country like Spain....and even a separate language in effect, in the form of Catalan....how do you think our New Mexican would get along down there...let's assume they are in the very south of thje country, in Andalucia, to my mind the most attractive part of Spain.

Do you think our American friend would encounter any linguistic difficulties at all? Would his or her New Mexican Spanish be all that much different from Andalucian Spanish? I suppose it would be similar to your average American chatting up Brits in English here in the UK. >>


They are sudacas and are discriminated against. They are like the black Maghrebis in France.
Happy Chappy   Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:34 pm GMT
Uriel

I could not get this link to work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yTP2ud1FS8
Damian London SW15   Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:10 pm GMT
Here is a Rhotic addressing all the (mainly) Non-Rhotics among the huge audience at the Royal Albert Hall, London, on Saturday 12/09/09 on the occasion of the annual BBC Last Night of the Proms...the official ending of the season of classical promenade concerts held there from July to September each year.

Apart from being broadcast live right across the world the Last Night Of The Proms is transmitted live to huge crowds in the open air at various locations across the four countries of the UK - Hyde Park, London - a stone's throw away from the Royal Albert Hall itself.....Manchester, (Northern England); Swansea (Wales); Glasgow (Scotand) and Belfast (Northern Ireland).

I was unable to get tickets for the RAH itself, and neither could my friends, so we had to make do among the huge throng in Hyde Park.

The Rhotic was the conductor, David Robertson, who you see in the clip - an American, as you will hear. He told us all that he came to the UK from California when he was 18 to study music and to start out on a career in that field. He joked about learning how to use adverbs for the first time when he first came to England.

The tune of Land of Hope and Glory is by Sir Edward Elgar and many people here in the UK are pressing for it to become the official National Anthem of the UK in place of the one we have at present. We love our gracious Queen but we really don't think it's absolutely necessary for us to constantly clamour for her to be saved....she's doing quite well as it is at 83 years of age.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYl2SNIJU3k&feature=related

Good night.