Skippy - There is nothing about the accent in New England that sounds anything at all, to my ears, like any of the English accents I've heard (I lived in the UK for a bit). Most of family is from New England and they all have the accent to varying degrees (hell, even I have some of it even though I'm from Chicago, because it has been brought to my attention by others that a few of my word pronunciations are decidedly not Midwestern). Personally, I can't possibly imagine how one could think it sounds "English" in anyway, but then again perception can be a funny thing.
Neutral accent
However the debate may have started, it now seems to be seeking an answer to whether accent determines class or not. In India, the question itself needs to be qualified - which class is being spoken about, the one that you come from or the one that you wish to be part of? There can be no arguing the fact that your accent is a reflection of the sum total of accents you spent a major part of your life surrounded by. And if that is true, then Indian students who studied in public schools in India generally tend to have an accent that is closer to RP than of the less privileged ones who attended schools in some God-forsaken hamlet have a somewhat thick accent.
There is also a third category here; the latchkey kids who interacted more with their cousins in the States than their teachers in the posh schools that they went to(only went too!). These 'guys' and 'gals' learnt more english from HBO and Hollywood than from school or college put together. They have an accent that is funny - just funny. It is neither here nor there. (My sisterrr daencd till the laast haeurr/ My sisterr daanct till the laest aah.)
To train each one of the three categories above; RP is a GREAT model. Clarity of speech comes from sharp and crisp consonant sounds and full and clear vowel sounds. No other 'accent model' comes closer to fulfilling these conditions than RP.
While the neutral accent is being deplored (toe curling! really?) in every possible manner above, the truth is that it remains the clearest accent for telephony and brodcasting world wide.
May I prove it? Let an Indian or a Chinese who has had minimal exposure to english speech and sounds watch (rather listen to) BBC for half an hour followed by CNN(or vice versa) for the same duration. Try getting some feedback and I bet that the person would call BBC pronunciation and accent simpler and easier to understand. I too would rather have a posh RP accent on my answering machine than imitate a scouser(a liverpool guy) or for that matter, a person from Sheffield for it. Let them cringe if they wish to, but understand every word of it.
No call center worth its name in India will ever employ a trainer that pushes any accent other than RP. This is not to say that every trainee will acheive the standard in matter of weeks. In fact, most of them will end up with a somewhat non-standard accent immediately after the training. It is regular coaching and feedback thereon that gradually brings the pronunciation and intonation closer to RP.
I agree with Rick and Damian to a certain extent, especially when it comes to the existence of class in the American world and the prejudices that follow the moment we hear anything that is different from our model of speech. After all, the idea of a classless society itself is a little too utopian. If anything, the americans are a tad extra conscious of a system of class that is based on the level of economic success an individual has acheived.
There is also a third category here; the latchkey kids who interacted more with their cousins in the States than their teachers in the posh schools that they went to(only went too!). These 'guys' and 'gals' learnt more english from HBO and Hollywood than from school or college put together. They have an accent that is funny - just funny. It is neither here nor there. (My sisterrr daencd till the laast haeurr/ My sisterr daanct till the laest aah.)
To train each one of the three categories above; RP is a GREAT model. Clarity of speech comes from sharp and crisp consonant sounds and full and clear vowel sounds. No other 'accent model' comes closer to fulfilling these conditions than RP.
While the neutral accent is being deplored (toe curling! really?) in every possible manner above, the truth is that it remains the clearest accent for telephony and brodcasting world wide.
May I prove it? Let an Indian or a Chinese who has had minimal exposure to english speech and sounds watch (rather listen to) BBC for half an hour followed by CNN(or vice versa) for the same duration. Try getting some feedback and I bet that the person would call BBC pronunciation and accent simpler and easier to understand. I too would rather have a posh RP accent on my answering machine than imitate a scouser(a liverpool guy) or for that matter, a person from Sheffield for it. Let them cringe if they wish to, but understand every word of it.
No call center worth its name in India will ever employ a trainer that pushes any accent other than RP. This is not to say that every trainee will acheive the standard in matter of weeks. In fact, most of them will end up with a somewhat non-standard accent immediately after the training. It is regular coaching and feedback thereon that gradually brings the pronunciation and intonation closer to RP.
I agree with Rick and Damian to a certain extent, especially when it comes to the existence of class in the American world and the prejudices that follow the moment we hear anything that is different from our model of speech. After all, the idea of a classless society itself is a little too utopian. If anything, the americans are a tad extra conscious of a system of class that is based on the level of economic success an individual has acheived.
I wish the call centers were NOT in India, or I wish the employees spoke GA. Oh, I notice that the employee work VERY hard, but I've had trouble understanding some of them. It makes me want to take my business elsewhere.
<<It makes me want to take my business elsewhere. >>
The 'want' is perhaps nullified by the 'compulsion' there; economic, is it? No one else does it (read speaks) better for the same price.
All the same, thanks dear Guest for providing evidence towards the corectness of the first sentence of my last paragraph :-)
The 'want' is perhaps nullified by the 'compulsion' there; economic, is it? No one else does it (read speaks) better for the same price.
All the same, thanks dear Guest for providing evidence towards the corectness of the first sentence of my last paragraph :-)
The matter here, though, is that it is quite clear that very many English-speaking North Americans want to be able to speak to individuals who fluently speak *North American English* over the phone. The matter is that Indian English and even English English influenced by other languages in India are not necessarily very comprehensible to many North Americans. Similarly, it is not uncommon for people on the other end of the line to have trouble understanding North Americans due to not being familiar with North American English, as they have been trained purely in English English.
The point has been missed. As far as transnational business communication is concerned, the reps in South Asia receive training in not only speaking clearly(read modeling RP), they are exposed to a wide variety of NAmE accents too. Their inadequacy is not the non-availability of a good model. It is the denunciation(or not enough encouragement) of the accent that they should model. I wish to know if there is anyone in this forum who believes that RP is the clearest english accent and could solve a few communication issues if imbibed by transnational reps as in an Indian call centre.
''The matter here, though, is that it is quite clear that very many English-speaking North Americans want to be able to speak to individuals who fluently speak *North American English* over the phone. The matter is that Indian English and even English English influenced by other languages in India are not necessarily very comprehensible to many North Americans.''
that is true. that's why many Indian and Pakistani medical doctors fail to pass the CS2 clinical skills exam...it is a bit difficult to take history when the patient can't understand you...although many Indians and Pakistani doctors have excellent marks in TOEFL tests (but this test has a heavy stress on writing, reading and understanding...it's not a communication skills test, they don't test your accent being easy to understand or not)...
that is true. that's why many Indian and Pakistani medical doctors fail to pass the CS2 clinical skills exam...it is a bit difficult to take history when the patient can't understand you...although many Indians and Pakistani doctors have excellent marks in TOEFL tests (but this test has a heavy stress on writing, reading and understanding...it's not a communication skills test, they don't test your accent being easy to understand or not)...
as for RP being neutral or not...
only 3 % of UK population speaks English with that accent.
it can be painful to live in regions where this accent is almost never used (for example in Northern England)...you are expected to understand Geordie and Scouse if you want to work in many fields (education, health, psychology, communication)...a foreign doctor living in Newcastle cannot say: please speak RP so I can understand you...
Personally, I find RP very cold and emotionless.
Accents of Southern Wales and Northern parts of England are much warmer and pleasant.
only 3 % of UK population speaks English with that accent.
it can be painful to live in regions where this accent is almost never used (for example in Northern England)...you are expected to understand Geordie and Scouse if you want to work in many fields (education, health, psychology, communication)...a foreign doctor living in Newcastle cannot say: please speak RP so I can understand you...
Personally, I find RP very cold and emotionless.
Accents of Southern Wales and Northern parts of England are much warmer and pleasant.
"I agree with Rick and Damian to a certain extent, especially when it comes to the existence of class in the American world and the prejudices that follow the moment we hear anything that is different from our model of speech." Daniel A.
<<It makes me want to take my business elsewhere. >>
I'm not against people having different accents, Daniel. I'm not against Indians either. I like Indian food and shop at Indian groceries whenever I can. It's a comprenhension problem dealing with numbers and banking terms over the phone. Who likes saying, "I'm sorry, I didn't understand you." or "I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean." repeatedly? I imagine that the employees get "Sorry?" or "What?" from other Americans.
<<It makes me want to take my business elsewhere. >>
I'm not against people having different accents, Daniel. I'm not against Indians either. I like Indian food and shop at Indian groceries whenever I can. It's a comprenhension problem dealing with numbers and banking terms over the phone. Who likes saying, "I'm sorry, I didn't understand you." or "I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean." repeatedly? I imagine that the employees get "Sorry?" or "What?" from other Americans.
Accent is indicative of class to some extent in the US, I think; however, great talent can change the economic wealth of a family with a less-desirable accent.
>>Accent is indicative of class to some extent in the US, I think; however, great talent can change the economic wealth of a family with a less-desirable accent.<<
Here in Wisconsin, things are bit more complicated than that. Amongst white people from Wisconsin who are native-English-speakers, phonology overall is indicative primarily of just where one is from, especially whether one is from the Upper Midwest, and is generally not unlinked to social class. For instance, my own idiolect is rather extreme in this regard, and yet I am from the middle class, while I frequently hear people lower in class than myself speak far closer to General American than myself. The main thing, though, is that southern accents are still somewhat stigmatized here, but this itself is not necessarily indicative of social class. Also, there are dialects that are thought of as being more rural, particularly the more extreme dialects of the far northern Upper Midwest, but these do not seem to be actively stigmatized.
Things are quite different amongst the black population here, though. For them, phonology is directly tied to not only social class but also social context. For instance, much of the poor black population of Milwaukee speaks solely AAVE, which can be much further from General American than the AAVE that one might hear in media content. At the same time, middle class black people generally speak General American with some degree of an AAVE substratum (which can sometimes be very slight). Between the two, it is very common for individuals to switch between AAVE and General American with AAVE influence in different social contexts, especially if one is of a higher rather than lower social class but does not exclusively use General American. Similarly, the higher the social class one is, the less AAVE influence there typically is on one's General American.
As for other groups, I really cannot say a whole lot beyond that individuals who grow up in the suburbs pattern like white people here while those that live in particular neighborhoods may have more outside substratum influence on their English.
Here in Wisconsin, things are bit more complicated than that. Amongst white people from Wisconsin who are native-English-speakers, phonology overall is indicative primarily of just where one is from, especially whether one is from the Upper Midwest, and is generally not unlinked to social class. For instance, my own idiolect is rather extreme in this regard, and yet I am from the middle class, while I frequently hear people lower in class than myself speak far closer to General American than myself. The main thing, though, is that southern accents are still somewhat stigmatized here, but this itself is not necessarily indicative of social class. Also, there are dialects that are thought of as being more rural, particularly the more extreme dialects of the far northern Upper Midwest, but these do not seem to be actively stigmatized.
Things are quite different amongst the black population here, though. For them, phonology is directly tied to not only social class but also social context. For instance, much of the poor black population of Milwaukee speaks solely AAVE, which can be much further from General American than the AAVE that one might hear in media content. At the same time, middle class black people generally speak General American with some degree of an AAVE substratum (which can sometimes be very slight). Between the two, it is very common for individuals to switch between AAVE and General American with AAVE influence in different social contexts, especially if one is of a higher rather than lower social class but does not exclusively use General American. Similarly, the higher the social class one is, the less AAVE influence there typically is on one's General American.
As for other groups, I really cannot say a whole lot beyond that individuals who grow up in the suburbs pattern like white people here while those that live in particular neighborhoods may have more outside substratum influence on their English.
Travis, I would tend to agree with you on most points, but class isn't just the accent or dialect, it's a variety of things. Accent and language do influence potential employers and possibly upward mobility, imo. I've been hired on the basis of my languages and accent. This is a little funny because my primary job skills are not in languages...
''however, great talent can change the economic wealth of a family with a less-desirable accent.''
well, yes
no one finds Beyoncé's Southern accent ugly
because it suits her well
it wouldn't be her if she put on a Valley Girl accent or a Chicago accent.
well, yes
no one finds Beyoncé's Southern accent ugly
because it suits her well
it wouldn't be her if she put on a Valley Girl accent or a Chicago accent.
***I wish the call centers were NOT in India***
Unfortunately this issue is one that causes the greatest number of complaints and resentment from people here in the UK wishing to contact their banks or any other large business concerns or organisations who have moved their call centres to India, and who find that they have enormous difficulty understanding Sub Continental accents.
Now we find an increasing number of companies stressing the fact that all their call cenres are UK based.
People here in the UK will grumble and grouse about anything and everything - before the moves of call centres to India (or wherever) people in the South of England (for example) used to moan and whinge and whine about the Glasgow accents when many of the call centres were based there, prior to moving abroad. As in every aspect of life, you can never, ever please all of the people all of the time.
I'm beginning to get a bit pissed off with some of the more extreme London accents now........only joking!
Unfortunately this issue is one that causes the greatest number of complaints and resentment from people here in the UK wishing to contact their banks or any other large business concerns or organisations who have moved their call centres to India, and who find that they have enormous difficulty understanding Sub Continental accents.
Now we find an increasing number of companies stressing the fact that all their call cenres are UK based.
People here in the UK will grumble and grouse about anything and everything - before the moves of call centres to India (or wherever) people in the South of England (for example) used to moan and whinge and whine about the Glasgow accents when many of the call centres were based there, prior to moving abroad. As in every aspect of life, you can never, ever please all of the people all of the time.
I'm beginning to get a bit pissed off with some of the more extreme London accents now........only joking!
<<I wish the call centers were NOT in India, or I wish the employees spoke GA. Oh, I notice that the employee work VERY hard, but I've had trouble understanding some of them. It makes me want to take my business elsewhere.>>
I agree. Communication is very difficult with these people over the phone.
I agree. Communication is very difficult with these people over the phone.