Designed languages: Hebrew, Classical Sanscrit, Classical Latin, French to some extent...
English turning into globish
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Another Guest: «The idea of allowing phonemic mergers in other languages to dictate English is silly, both in principle (why should we have to change?) and in practice. In Japanese, /l/ and /r/ are pronounced the same. In nonrhotic dialects of English, /r/ and /w/ are pronounced the same. In Indian English, /w/ and /v/ are pronounced the same. In Spanish, /v/ and /b/ are pronounced the same. And according to a previous post, /b/ and /p/ are pronounced the same in some languages. So, what, are we going to collapse l,r,w,v,b, and p down to a single letter?»
Good point, except that it doesn't have to be like you say:
- In Japanese, /l/ and /r/ are pronounced the same, thus a Japanese speaker of Toki Pona pronounces the letter L as /ɾ/. Since the letter R doesn't exist in Toki Pona, there is no ambiguity that he means L.
- According to you, in nonrhotic dialects of English, /r/ and /w/ are pronounced the same, which is not a problem in Toki Pona because they can still prononce the letter L as /l/ and the letter W as /w/ (again the R doesn't exist in this language). No ambiguity.
- In Indian English, /w/ and /v/ are pronounced the same, which is not a problem in Toki Pona since they can still pronounce the W as /ʋ/ and they don't have to pronounce the non-existing V letter. No ambiguity.
- In Spanish, /v/ and /b/ are pronounced the same, which is not a problem in Toki Pona since they only have to pronounce the B as /β̞/ and they don't have to pronounce the non-existant V at all. No ambiguity.
You could argue that if Indian English doesn't differentiate /w/ and /v/ while Spanish doesn't differentiate /v/ and /b/ then a Spanish speaker could pronounce the Toki Pona letter B the same as an Indian English speaker would pronouce the Toki Pona letter W. But in effect, the Indian /ʋ/ is somewhere between a /v/ and a /w/ while the Spanish /β̞/ is somewhere between a /b/ and a /v/ so they remain distinguishable.
The idea of the creator of Toki Pona wasn't to merge every ambiguous consonant, which wouldn't make sense, but rather to allow room for variation in the prononciation of the 9 consonants that this language uses. To achieve that, these consonants were chosen so that they were all different enough from each other. As a result, little to no training is needed to pronounce them. In this respect, Toki Pona is very impressive.
As a clarification, I am not advocating that English should do the same. As I hinted in my previous post, this would create too many homophones. What I am stating — as an observation, not as a recommendation — is that designing a language that requires little to no investement in learning to pronounce it is possible and has been done. The scope of my post is different from, and much narrower than, that of the OP.
Good point, except that it doesn't have to be like you say:
- In Japanese, /l/ and /r/ are pronounced the same, thus a Japanese speaker of Toki Pona pronounces the letter L as /ɾ/. Since the letter R doesn't exist in Toki Pona, there is no ambiguity that he means L.
- According to you, in nonrhotic dialects of English, /r/ and /w/ are pronounced the same, which is not a problem in Toki Pona because they can still prononce the letter L as /l/ and the letter W as /w/ (again the R doesn't exist in this language). No ambiguity.
- In Indian English, /w/ and /v/ are pronounced the same, which is not a problem in Toki Pona since they can still pronounce the W as /ʋ/ and they don't have to pronounce the non-existing V letter. No ambiguity.
- In Spanish, /v/ and /b/ are pronounced the same, which is not a problem in Toki Pona since they only have to pronounce the B as /β̞/ and they don't have to pronounce the non-existant V at all. No ambiguity.
You could argue that if Indian English doesn't differentiate /w/ and /v/ while Spanish doesn't differentiate /v/ and /b/ then a Spanish speaker could pronounce the Toki Pona letter B the same as an Indian English speaker would pronouce the Toki Pona letter W. But in effect, the Indian /ʋ/ is somewhere between a /v/ and a /w/ while the Spanish /β̞/ is somewhere between a /b/ and a /v/ so they remain distinguishable.
The idea of the creator of Toki Pona wasn't to merge every ambiguous consonant, which wouldn't make sense, but rather to allow room for variation in the prononciation of the 9 consonants that this language uses. To achieve that, these consonants were chosen so that they were all different enough from each other. As a result, little to no training is needed to pronounce them. In this respect, Toki Pona is very impressive.
As a clarification, I am not advocating that English should do the same. As I hinted in my previous post, this would create too many homophones. What I am stating — as an observation, not as a recommendation — is that designing a language that requires little to no investement in learning to pronounce it is possible and has been done. The scope of my post is different from, and much narrower than, that of the OP.
Exactly Drew, plus the obvious point that the previous "common denominator" designed language, Latin, has naturally evolved into ten or more variants that are now only slightly mutually intelligible. "Globish" would only do the same over time.
Heh, you're right, Latin did exactly what you would expect. It's interesting, actually, that we say languages evolve, and here we have an example of a language evolving exactly like actual evolution. Something spreads over a region, it separates, and changes until the separate regions no longer mix.
So, similar to actual animals, the only way to prevent a global language to keep from changing is to frequently intermix it with other regions, similar to how the US maintains a standard dialect by way of national media and the like. We can't really expect something like that to occur globally until we're a little more connected with poorer regions.
Very interesting. :)
So, similar to actual animals, the only way to prevent a global language to keep from changing is to frequently intermix it with other regions, similar to how the US maintains a standard dialect by way of national media and the like. We can't really expect something like that to occur globally until we're a little more connected with poorer regions.
Very interesting. :)
<<What traits do you think english should pick up to become a better global language. Please don't post if your against the idea. Please share your ideas this thread is suppose to be an exercise of the mind and not the ego.
>>
I think we should think seriously about adding a case system to English, taht would make it much easier for me as a Russian speaker and get rid of these extremely difficult ideas related to a strict word order.
What do you think of my awesome idea? What you don't realise is that for at least half of the world's population analytic languages are not so easy and that we find it to lack structure and is somewhat like a mess of uninterrelated words spewed onto the page like garbage into a tip.
I think we should think seriously addingabout aof caseof systemof Englisto, that would make it much easier mefor as afor Russianfor speakerfor and get rid thesesof extremelysof difficutsof ideasof relatedsof ato strictto wordto orderto.
What do you think myof awesomeof ideaof? What you don't realise is that leastat halffor theof populationof worldof analytics languages are not so easys and that we find it to lack structure and is somewhat alike messlike uninterrelatedsof wordsof spewedsof theonto pageonto garbagelike ainto tipinto.
>>
I think we should think seriously about adding a case system to English, taht would make it much easier for me as a Russian speaker and get rid of these extremely difficult ideas related to a strict word order.
What do you think of my awesome idea? What you don't realise is that for at least half of the world's population analytic languages are not so easy and that we find it to lack structure and is somewhat like a mess of uninterrelated words spewed onto the page like garbage into a tip.
I think we should think seriously addingabout aof caseof systemof Englisto, that would make it much easier mefor as afor Russianfor speakerfor and get rid thesesof extremelysof difficutsof ideasof relatedsof ato strictto wordto orderto.
What do you think myof awesomeof ideaof? What you don't realise is that leastat halffor theof populationof worldof analytics languages are not so easys and that we find it to lack structure and is somewhat alike messlike uninterrelatedsof wordsof spewedsof theonto pageonto garbagelike ainto tipinto.
You guys sound like a bunch of children. Why should we give this to them and all these little comments are so short sited. I'm talking about modifying the languge by 10 percent to make it 50 percent faster to learn. It wouldn't replace english just be another accepted international dialect. Its not about being fair to people or any childish notion like that. It would simply be to make the world a global community faster than the current rate. And i have to admit the small changes i wanna add are for the chinese but that's because as a person interested in business, the language barrier is what is hurting the global economy.
As a person that believes in free trade i can't but help think that language
barriers act just the same as taxs in halting economic growth. Remember i'm talking about a ten percent change to cut the learning time in half.
My ten percent change would be mostly simple things that native speakers could ignore. Such as a soft case sytem. where Dee and Duh replaced the, where dee is always the subject. Remove bogus iregularities that make no logical sense.
And plz take the you out of this thread. If your too short sighted to realize that you and your country in terms of the world ain't that important//than start your own thread
As a person that believes in free trade i can't but help think that language
barriers act just the same as taxs in halting economic growth. Remember i'm talking about a ten percent change to cut the learning time in half.
My ten percent change would be mostly simple things that native speakers could ignore. Such as a soft case sytem. where Dee and Duh replaced the, where dee is always the subject. Remove bogus iregularities that make no logical sense.
And plz take the you out of this thread. If your too short sighted to realize that you and your country in terms of the world ain't that important//than start your own thread
... or rather, "English turning into rubbish!"......
The internet is being heavily flooded with rubbish/trashy English!
The English language in an attempt to become a global language has ended up being highly contaminated and severely distorted.
English is now in the process of becoming an ugly and atrocious language. That's the price it has to pay for trying to become an international language.
The most tragic part is that English has never really attained the status of a global language as it is widely believed to have. The majority of ESL students throughout the world have failed to achieve even a rudimentary level of English and yet they are generally considered English speakers. The number of English speakers all over the world has been grossly exaggerated.
Most people from where I come from could hardly speak or understand even very basic English despite having spent many years learning the language at school. This phenomenon is the norm in almost all non-English speaking countries. If even a highly developed and affluent country like Japan fails to achieve a passable level of English despite their enthusiasm and passion and the money they have spent, what can you expect from other less developed and less affluent countries?
I doubt that English has ever become or will ever become a truly global language and I tend to believe that there will never be a truly global language. We'll probably never need a global language as our advancing technology will eventually provide us with an effective means for global communication.
The internet is being heavily flooded with rubbish/trashy English!
The English language in an attempt to become a global language has ended up being highly contaminated and severely distorted.
English is now in the process of becoming an ugly and atrocious language. That's the price it has to pay for trying to become an international language.
The most tragic part is that English has never really attained the status of a global language as it is widely believed to have. The majority of ESL students throughout the world have failed to achieve even a rudimentary level of English and yet they are generally considered English speakers. The number of English speakers all over the world has been grossly exaggerated.
Most people from where I come from could hardly speak or understand even very basic English despite having spent many years learning the language at school. This phenomenon is the norm in almost all non-English speaking countries. If even a highly developed and affluent country like Japan fails to achieve a passable level of English despite their enthusiasm and passion and the money they have spent, what can you expect from other less developed and less affluent countries?
I doubt that English has ever become or will ever become a truly global language and I tend to believe that there will never be a truly global language. We'll probably never need a global language as our advancing technology will eventually provide us with an effective means for global communication.
A Lousy English Speaker: «Most people from where I come from could hardly speak or understand even very basic English despite having spent many years learning the language at school. This phenomenon is the norm in almost all non-English speaking countries. If even a highly developed and affluent country like Japan fails to achieve a passable level of English despite their enthusiasm and passion and the money they have spent, what can you expect from other less developed and less affluent countries?»
Very well said, and true. I remember reading the following figures: only 1 out of 100 European ESL learners (excluding the speakers of Germanic languages) reach a sufficiently functional level in English and as few as 1 out of 1000 Asian. Only people willing to invest a considerable amount of time in their English studies, like Tom, can reasonably expect to get somewhere. But Tom spent countless hours, days, months, years thinking in English rather than in his native Polish, training his prononciation, reading, memorizing stuff via Supermemo, basically making English a crucial part of his daily life, and of his life as a whole. How many people are crazy enough about languages to do all that?
English is and can only be at most the global language of only a small elite in each country where it is not spoken natively or, at the very least, as one the official language. To all the readers who, like me, live in such countries, how many of your countrymen do you think could, using English:
- in a foreign hospital, explain to the medical staff their condition, their symptoms, their medical history, the vaccinations they have had, or even just where it hurts when they do what move?
- meating a Chinese (preferably other than Shuimo), or let's say a Nigerian if they're Chinese themselves, ask him what life is like under the rule of his government, or the difference in importance that individual thinking and collective thinking have in their respective cultures?
- mistakenly arrested by the police in a remote country, exonerate themselves?
- someplace abroad in a store, explain what kind of clothes they would like to purchase, and what style they would prefer?
- tell a joke?
- explain what they liked about a film they watched, a dish they tasted, a scenery they got to and admired?
- understand the dialogue above?
❝
- He's made up his mind to stay in.
- Well, I've made up my face to go out.
❞
- get to know someone, what they like, what they want and what they hope?
- Get the English tenses right? Conjugate their irregular verbs correctly?
- not raise an eyebrow before this phrase: «Business class is a tough act to follow»?
- As guests in an unfamiliar land, ask their hosts about the cultural taboos and the possible faux pas or check and confront their own stereotypes?
- read English litterature?
- understand the difference between, and the different meanings of: take up, take in, take down, take off, take out, take over, take back, take on, and take apart?
- ask a person from, say, Togo while he's seeing snow for the first time how he feels about it, and understand his answer?
- not need an English dictionary, even after 10, 15, 20 years spent learning it?
- ever feel the English language as "their own"?
Nuf said.
Very well said, and true. I remember reading the following figures: only 1 out of 100 European ESL learners (excluding the speakers of Germanic languages) reach a sufficiently functional level in English and as few as 1 out of 1000 Asian. Only people willing to invest a considerable amount of time in their English studies, like Tom, can reasonably expect to get somewhere. But Tom spent countless hours, days, months, years thinking in English rather than in his native Polish, training his prononciation, reading, memorizing stuff via Supermemo, basically making English a crucial part of his daily life, and of his life as a whole. How many people are crazy enough about languages to do all that?
English is and can only be at most the global language of only a small elite in each country where it is not spoken natively or, at the very least, as one the official language. To all the readers who, like me, live in such countries, how many of your countrymen do you think could, using English:
- in a foreign hospital, explain to the medical staff their condition, their symptoms, their medical history, the vaccinations they have had, or even just where it hurts when they do what move?
- meating a Chinese (preferably other than Shuimo), or let's say a Nigerian if they're Chinese themselves, ask him what life is like under the rule of his government, or the difference in importance that individual thinking and collective thinking have in their respective cultures?
- mistakenly arrested by the police in a remote country, exonerate themselves?
- someplace abroad in a store, explain what kind of clothes they would like to purchase, and what style they would prefer?
- tell a joke?
- explain what they liked about a film they watched, a dish they tasted, a scenery they got to and admired?
- understand the dialogue above?
❝
- He's made up his mind to stay in.
- Well, I've made up my face to go out.
❞
- get to know someone, what they like, what they want and what they hope?
- Get the English tenses right? Conjugate their irregular verbs correctly?
- not raise an eyebrow before this phrase: «Business class is a tough act to follow»?
- As guests in an unfamiliar land, ask their hosts about the cultural taboos and the possible faux pas or check and confront their own stereotypes?
- read English litterature?
- understand the difference between, and the different meanings of: take up, take in, take down, take off, take out, take over, take back, take on, and take apart?
- ask a person from, say, Togo while he's seeing snow for the first time how he feels about it, and understand his answer?
- not need an English dictionary, even after 10, 15, 20 years spent learning it?
- ever feel the English language as "their own"?
Nuf said.
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