Seems to be on the rise in the urban inner city areas of Glasgow and Dublin.
Discuss:
Discuss:
Rhoticity in Scotland and Ireland
That's true in terms of Dublin, not so true in terms of Glasgow. Glasgow has always been rhotic, although the alveolar tap doesn't have the same rhotic 'oomph' as the American/West Country retroflex 'r.' Thus the Glaswegian pronunciation of "darts" as [da:ɾts] tends to sound non-rhotic to American ears since the "r" and the "t" aren't as clearly delineated.
Dublin, however, actually DOES have working-class, non-rhotic accents. What's interesting is that middle-class Dublin suburbanites have made either a conscious or unconcious attempt to distance themselves from this 'local dialect' and go in completely the opposite direction by using a strong retroflex 'r.' The situation in that city is somewhat similar to the situation in NYC in terms of r-lessness, although I'd actually say Dublin is a bit further advanced in the process of becoming a rhotic city.
Dublin, however, actually DOES have working-class, non-rhotic accents. What's interesting is that middle-class Dublin suburbanites have made either a conscious or unconcious attempt to distance themselves from this 'local dialect' and go in completely the opposite direction by using a strong retroflex 'r.' The situation in that city is somewhat similar to the situation in NYC in terms of r-lessness, although I'd actually say Dublin is a bit further advanced in the process of becoming a rhotic city.
Question to Trawick I'm interested in modern Dublin English, I know about increasing rhoticity there, but what would you say about L velarization in Dublin? I was listening to some Dubliners and they seem to have flapped t in words like: city, pretty....etc. Are they becoming closer to General American English or what else does that change in pronunciation mean?
I don't know that I would automatically assume they were "becoming" closer to American English on account of their flapped T's. Maybe they always did it. Just because Americans are well known for our flapped T's doesn't mean we invented it and it was unknown before we came along. Given that Australians also flap their T's and I've occasionally heard English people doing it as well, I would be more likely to assume that it's a common variant that predates us, and is simply exaggerated in our speech, rather than being unique to it.
They've always done it. Ever since the Norse built Dublin anyway, and the Normans, English and Huguenots came along to enrich the babbling Liffeyside pluralism.
Whatever about the rest of Ireland, there are about 40 different accents in Dublin alone. Francis Street has its own accent, which sometimes replaces 's' sound with 'z'.
And yes, 't' takes quite a beating about town, generally speaking.
In some dialects of Dublin you'll hear the phrase "Shut up" come out as "Shurroop".
But I've said enough.
Whatever about the rest of Ireland, there are about 40 different accents in Dublin alone. Francis Street has its own accent, which sometimes replaces 's' sound with 'z'.
And yes, 't' takes quite a beating about town, generally speaking.
In some dialects of Dublin you'll hear the phrase "Shut up" come out as "Shurroop".
But I've said enough.
The general Dublin accent is reasonably identifiable to most people, here in the UK anyway......to me it seems quite distinct from the provincial accents of the Republic of Ireland. I have only once been to Dublin's Fair City (where it isn't just the girls who are pretty) and I was there in the city for little more than four hours although my Welsh friend and I were stranded overnight in the port of Dun Laoghaire (pr. Lairy) because we missed the last ferry taking us back to Holyhead, in Anglesey (Sir Fon - pr. Seer Vorn) in North Wales.
During our enforced overnight stay we got chatting to two members of the Garda Siocana - the official Police force of the ROI - and two more interesting and charming gardai guys you could never wish to meet - and both had what seemed to us (a Scot and a Welshman) to be typical Dublin accents.......to them Dublin came out as "Doblin"...there is something about the Southern Irish accent (ie the ROI) which is magical in my opinion.
I wish we had spent a lot more time on the banks of the Liffey.
During our enforced overnight stay we got chatting to two members of the Garda Siocana - the official Police force of the ROI - and two more interesting and charming gardai guys you could never wish to meet - and both had what seemed to us (a Scot and a Welshman) to be typical Dublin accents.......to them Dublin came out as "Doblin"...there is something about the Southern Irish accent (ie the ROI) which is magical in my opinion.
I wish we had spent a lot more time on the banks of the Liffey.
There are actually (I'm not making this up) five different ways that intervocalic 't' is pronounced in Dublin. In working class-speech you can hear a glottal stop [?] (as in London), an alveolar approximan [r\] as in Liverpool, or, most bizarrely an 'h' sound. So the word "duty" can sound like "du'y" (a la Cockney), "doo ree," or "do he."
Middle-class/suburban Dublin typically uses either the affricated 't' sound typical of most Irish (and again, Liverpool, that little Irish outpost) accents OR the alveolar tap. The latter, by the way, is not an Americanism. It's a phonological shift that occurs in Australia, parts of Western England, Northern Ireland, and suburban London.
Dublin, btw, does tend to use the velarized 'l' more commonly than the rest of Ireland, but as with almost everything else about the dialects in that city, it is mind-numbingly variable.
For anybody that's interested, this might serve as a good tour of the Dublin accent landscape using, well, celebrity Youtube clips:
For working-class, you can't go much better than singer/songwriter, Damien Dempsey from the city's northside: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw-9bKRqhM
Then there's this clip, where you can contrast two members of U2 with different accents: Larry Mullen, whose accent is typical lower-middle-class, and Bono, with a more non-regional middle-class accent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXELzDfOQ20
Then there's Queer as Folk's Aidan Gillen, who has a good example of suburban Dublin English. It borrows a lot from the vowel system of Southern England/America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUzi9juqbqU
Middle-class/suburban Dublin typically uses either the affricated 't' sound typical of most Irish (and again, Liverpool, that little Irish outpost) accents OR the alveolar tap. The latter, by the way, is not an Americanism. It's a phonological shift that occurs in Australia, parts of Western England, Northern Ireland, and suburban London.
Dublin, btw, does tend to use the velarized 'l' more commonly than the rest of Ireland, but as with almost everything else about the dialects in that city, it is mind-numbingly variable.
For anybody that's interested, this might serve as a good tour of the Dublin accent landscape using, well, celebrity Youtube clips:
For working-class, you can't go much better than singer/songwriter, Damien Dempsey from the city's northside: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGw-9bKRqhM
Then there's this clip, where you can contrast two members of U2 with different accents: Larry Mullen, whose accent is typical lower-middle-class, and Bono, with a more non-regional middle-class accent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXELzDfOQ20
Then there's Queer as Folk's Aidan Gillen, who has a good example of suburban Dublin English. It borrows a lot from the vowel system of Southern England/America: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUzi9juqbqU
All Scots dialects are rhotic, and always have been.
I'm a Scot, so I should know.
I'm a Scot, so I should know.
Thank you guys for that full information :) I'm gonna write down some pages, collect and note most phonological features of English dialect spoken in Dublin :) I'm an English pronunciation maniac, especially vowel sounds...
Of the many books he wrote on language, Anthony Burgess gave us two very entertaining ones that touch upon Dublin dialect -"Joysprick : An Introduction to the Language of James Joyce" and "Re Joyce".