With God On Our Side

Gjones2   Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:50 am GMT
>Gjones2, you seem to be fond of latin language, am I wrong?
Do you know this website? It's very interesting
http://ephemeris.alcuinus.net/ [Vincent]

I drop by occasionally. Yes, it's an interesting concept -- putting the news into Latin.
Benjamin P.   Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:38 am GMT
Even having studied biblical history in both a secular institution of higher learning and a theological one, it seems doubtful to me if we really know much about Jesus' life before the time of HIS calling. The story of HIM lagging behind at the temple is likely the only clear instance of this in Biblical writings.

A point to take from this, HIS mother seemed to have little idea of HIS statement of being in HIS father's house. HIS relatives (including Mary) believed HIM to be 'beside himself' (crazy) when HE was involved in the early parts of HIS ministry. When HE was a young child and when HE was in HIS early 30's, no one in HIS family seemed to remember the glorious birth, and conception leading up to the birth, that is talked about in the Matthew account nor in the Luke account (they are very different if you read them side-by-side. A book by 'Burton H. Throckmorton Jr is a great help when doing this.)

In those times it took so much time and trouble to travel long distances that it really seems doubtful that Jesus was more than a few days (weeks) walk from HIS homeland at anytime. Even a traveller such as Paul did not go extremely far from home and stayed within the Mediterranean in the writings we have.

...for what it's worth.
Gjones2   Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:44 am GMT
In my opinion this isn't an appropriate site for either proselytizing or debunking. The claim about Jesus having been in England is a trivial matter, not taken seriously by many persons. Even if true, it would have few religious implications. The one about Jesus having had a child and been an ancestor of some of the French has more serious implications, as do some of the more recent comments about other aspects of his life.

I don't believe that we should start a discussion of what we think is true or untrue about the Bible. From the Blake lines to the Augustine passage I've been writing about how some things would be regarded by others. That's what I mean when I say that I have my doubts about the French legend being a "nice" story. I haven't expressed my own views about anything theological. Whether adherents of a religion or not, people who come to a language forum probably do so to discuss language. In my opinion we should try to avoid gratuitously offending them by taking strong religious or anti-religious positions.
Gjones2   Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:50 am GMT
By the way, Benjamin, I'm curious about your reason for using all caps for 'HIM', 'HIS', and 'HE'. I've often seen initial caps, but that's unusual.
Damian in Edinburgh   Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:16 am GMT
I don't know about Jesus having visited England....most unlikely...but Jesus' contemporary Joseph of Arimathea of the Sanhedrin is supposed to have done so. When my mate and I were in Glastonbury last year on the way down to Cornwall we walked up to the Glastonbury Tor and on the way up saw this flowering shrub on the hillside enclosed in a metal frame and it was apparently planted by St Joseph of Arimathea, a contemporary of Jesus.

Glastonbury is am amazing place....it has this weird spiritual air about it which is quite tangible.....probably because of all its historical and prehistorical connections, with the lovely ruined Abbey and the King Arthur links. I can't think of a better place to hold a pop Festival, mud or no mud! We'd like to make this year's Festival if we can.

I was disappointed not to hear much in the way of a Somerset burr from the people down there...everybody seemed to speak in a wee bit of a posh English English RP! Maybe we should have gone into a side street pub for some grub. Grub, in this sense, means food.
Adam   Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:23 pm GMT
Also, don't forget that the Holy Grail is supposed to be somewhere in the British Isles.

And some historians even say that the Anglo-Saxons were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel.
Adam   Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:34 pm GMT
There were TWO Josephs of Arimathea. One was Jesus's uncle and one was Jesus's disciple.

Jesus supposedly visited Britain with his uncle and spent many years in Glastonbury.

Even the Vatican has acknowledged that a Joseph of Arimathea did visit Britain.

Jesus Walking Down By Avalon

The lines "Did you ever hear about Jesus walkin', Jesus walkin' down by Avalon?" from "Summertime in England" refer to an ancient legend that Jesus once visited England. References to this legend include a poem by William Blake and the inspirational song "Jerusalem." Blake's text (from Milton) is as follows:

And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the Holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among those dark Satanic mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of Fire!
I will not cease from mental fight;
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land.


The words were set to music much later, in 1916, by the English composer Hubert Parry, and later orchestrated by Sir Edward Elgar in 1922. "Jerusalem" was first performed at a Votes for Women concert in 1916. A short snippet of the melody of "Jerusalem" may also be heard at the very end of "A Town Called Paradise" on No Guru No Method No Teacher.


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According to Coptic Christian tradition Jesus spent his first three years in Memphis, Egypt and also visited many other places in Lower and Upper Egypt upon which many churches were built to commemorate these visits. The most famous of these sites is Babylon, the Roman fortress of Old Cairo. It embraces within its walls the ancient church of Abu Sarga (St. Serguis), built on a crypt, in which Jesus lived during his sojourn in the Jewish quarter of Babylon. A brochure published by the Egyptian Ministry of Tourism entitled "The Holy Family in Egypt" lists all the sites.
There are at least four separate and independent British traditions that say that Jesus as a youth travelled to Britain with his uncle Joseph of Arimathea, spending many years in Glastonbury, which was a prominant center of Druidism. This is also confirmed by many independent sufi traditions which link sufism and Druidism. (See The Sufis, Indries Shah.)

In 1894, Nicolas Notovitch, a Russian journalist, published a book, La Vie Inconnue de Jesus-Christ translated in English as The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ which he claimed was based on an ancient Buddhist manuscript which reports Jesus' Buddhist studies in India.

At age fourteen under pressure to marry, Jesus had other goals. He secretly left home with a caravan of merchants to perfect himself in the "Divine Word" and study the laws of the great Buddhas and returned to Palestine at the age of 29 as a perfect expositer of the ancient and sacred writings.



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Whether or not Jesus actually visited England, a stronger legend persists that one of his disciples, Joseph of Arimathaea, did. In the Bible, Joseph is the man whose garden provided the resting place for Christ's body after the crucifixion, and where the risen Christ was mistaken for the gardener. A Somerset legend says:

"Joseph of Arimathaea, a rich man and disciple of Jesus, fled the Holy Land to escape the persecution of the followers of Christ. Journeying to Britain in hopes of spreading the faith there, he arrived in Glastonbury weary and discouraged, for his teaching had had little effect. He prayed for a miracle to convince the unbelievers, and when he thrust his staff into the earth, it burst forth into leaf and sweetly-scented blossoms.
The Glastonbury Thorn, a hawthorn tree now growing on the grounds of Glastonbury Abbey, protected by a high fence, is said to have originated from a cutting taken from the original tree which grew, on Wirrall Hill, from Joseph of Arimathaea's staff."


Versions of the Holy Grail story, by Robert de Borron and others, say the Grail was a dish or chalice of the Last Supper conveyed to Britain and to the 'Vales of Avalon' by Joseph of Arimathea or companions of his, with drops of the Saviour's blood. The Grail is said to rest below the Chalice Spring on Glastonbury Tor, the steep hill which dominates the town.

The belief that Joseph had visited or even lived at Glastonbury was so strong that King Edward III (who had visited Glastonbury Abbey in 1331) authorized a seer to search the abbey precincts for the body of Joseph of Arimathea. (It was never found.)

Glastonbury is also the legendary burial site of King Arthur, England's first Christian monarch. In Arthur's time, Glastonbury was known as the sacred Isle of Avalon. It was where Arthur died after being wounded in battle with the evil Mordred. Glastonbury is not an island today, but in the sixth century it was. Over time the surrounding marsh was drained and it ceased to be an island. In Arthur's time, Glastonbury and Avalon were one and the same. Glastonbury today has attracted countless crystal-ball gazers and other practitioners of New Age wisdom who seek enlightenment, rapture and/or wisdom in haunts of ancient peace.