"cot" and "caught"

Quintus   Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:07 pm GMT
"the word "Astronaut", which is a new word, relatively speaking"

A new word, yes, but based on an old one : Argonaut (from Greek, "sailor of the Argos" ; thus Gk. astro-, "star").

In the British Isles both words are properly rendered as with "caught".
LadyViolet   Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:58 pm GMT
In Scotland, cot/caught merger is common.
It may have been exported to Canada, and from there it spread to American West.
Leslie   Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:03 pm GMT
When I asked a co-worker if he was from Canada, he asked how I was able to figure that out. I said it was because he said "dɔlər". He asked me to say it the way an American would say it and I said "dɑlər"

/But the rounded vowel is common in Boston, Pittsburgh and Valley Girl Californian English: [dɔlər]. On the other hand, in St. John's (NewFoundland, Canada) the vowel is always unrounded: [dɑlər].
Leslie   Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:06 pm GMT
Furthermore, even in cot/caught unmerged regions, dark L can mess up the pronunciation:

so you have DOLL/INVOLVE/SOLVE all 3 with [ɑ] in NYC,
but with rounded [ɔ] in unmerged parts of Midwest and Inland North.
Foxie   Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:59 pm GMT
I'm in South Carolina, and I definitely distinguish 'cot' and 'caught'. 'Caught' feels farther back and more open.
Milton   Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:15 pm GMT
In many Southern accents cot/caught unmerger is common because caught vowel is basically a diphthong:

cot [kɑ:t]
caugt [kɑwt]

Don [dɑ:n]
dawn [dɑwn]

all [ɑl] or [ɑwl]
lawyer [lɑjər] (almost like ''liar'') or [lɑwjər]
Foxie   Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:51 pm GMT
Yes, mine for 'caught' is a diphthong.
JeffinNYC   Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:41 am GMT
From Question:

"These mergers, would they pronounce with an /ɑ/ words such as walk and taught and strong? And do some of them use it in "nautical" too? Do some even pronounce all /ɔ/s that way? "

It is not unusual to hear people from the Western U.S. use ɑ in walk, taught, strong, and nautical. I have a co-worker named Audrey and another co-worker who is from Los Angeles always calls her "Oddrey". Some people pronounce all ɔ's that way except before r. To my perception, people from the region centered around Utah seem to be the most ɑ-ful (or ɑ-some or ɔ-less, depending on how you look at it) English speakers. I think the fact that many companies choose Salt Lake City for their call centers because of the perceived "accent-free" speech portends a great deal about the future of American English.

From Leslie:

"/But the rounded vowel is common in Boston, Pittsburgh and Valley Girl Californian English: [dɔlər]. On the other hand, in St. John's (NewFoundland, Canada) the vowel is always unrounded: [dɑlər]."

Valley Girl, Hawaiian, and Canadian (or at least Toronto) accents have a lot in common. And, my younger relatives in Texas who have the cot-caught merger definitely say dɔlər (or the Southern version mentioned above by Milton, which not quite as far back as the Canadian sound and somewhat diphthongized and rounded).
Blanc   Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:07 am GMT
I agree about Salt Lake City, but there's also Denver, Phoenix and Tuscon where [ɑ] is almost always used. This is true of SoCal cities which haven't received many people from BackEast, for example Palm Springs.

In LA, the situation is complicated, so there are many accents:

1. conservative Californian with [ɑ] (similar to Salt Lake City, Denver, Palm Springs)

2. Valley Girl /Surfer's Dude with rounded [ɔ]: [dɔlər] (dollar), [mɔm] (mom)

3. merger influenced by L and NG, so people use [ɔ] in ''all, doll'', 'Hong Kong'', ''Long Song', ''wallet'', ''involve'', ''dollar'' , ' but [ɑ] in ''coffee shop'', ''hot dog'', ''got caught''.

4. strange hybrid accent in which some words are pronounced like in unmerged Midwestern/Backeast accents, and some words like in conservative Western, so people pronounce TALL with a rounded vowel [ɔ], but DOLL with an unrounded vowel [ɑ] while both ''cot'' and ''caught'' are unrounded [ɑ]

5. the strangest accent, people use the rounded vowel in word-ending syllables, but the unrounded vowel if there is another syllable after that, so

call [ɔ] rounded
calling [ɑ] unrounded

strong [ɔ] rounded
stronger [ɑ] unrounded

doll [ɔ] rounded
dollar [ɑ] unrounded

I guess, these last 3 patterns (3,4,5) would be classified by linguists as ''merger in transition'' or ''partially merged''

So, cot/caught is just one part of the whole story. A normal questionnaire should include these questions:

1. Do cot and caught rhyme in your accent?
2. Does Hong Kong rhyme with Long Song?
3. How about TALL DOLL
4. Or CALLER DOLLAR

For some merged people, the pronunciation depends on the next vowel:

all odds [ɑl ɑdz] (unrounded)
all oranges [ɔl ɔrɪnʤəz] (rounded)
Thomas   Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:04 am GMT
Most posters above should use [ ɒ: ] for "caught vowel" rather than [ ɔ ] for low back rounded vowel, when one use the former symbol it confuses me with my native [ ɔ ] that has a different quality, sounding liek Italian 'open o', French 'open o" etc....In London for 'caught' they have [ o:] and for 'cot' [ ɒ]
Samoth   Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:26 pm GMT
The ɔ in caught is the ɔ in italian "o"
Künstler   Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:32 pm GMT
BOSS

In Boston: [bɒs]
in St. John's NF: [bäs]
in Vancouver: [bɒs]
in Calgary: [bɒs]
in Denver: [bɑs]
in LA: [bɑs]
in NYC: [bɔs]

ɒ low back rounded
ɑ low back unrounded
ä low central unrounded
ɔ central-to-high back rounded
Künstler   Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:35 pm GMT
BOSTON

In Boston: [bɒstən]
in St. John's NF: [bästən]
in Vancouver: [bɒstən]
in Calgary: [bɒstən]
in Denver: [bɑstən]
in LA: [bɑstən]
in NYC: [bɔstən]

ɒ low back rounded
ɑ low back unrounded
ä low central unrounded
ɔ mid-to-high back rounded
Thomas   Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:15 pm GMT
Oh, my... so I always end up in pronouncing Boston with my native [ ä ], instead of [ ɑ ] which I am quite able to use before R's