Spanish for SPEAKERS of Latin

Luis Zalot   Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:39 pm GMT
greg Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:32 am GMT
Luis Zalot : une question.

Phonétiquement, écris-tu la syllabe initiale [je] de Es <hierba> [jerba] comme celle de Fr <yéti> [jeti] ?

Même question pour :
— [ja] : Es <acacia> [akaTja] vs Fr <acacia> [akasja] ?
— [jo] : Es <labio> [laBjo] vs Fr <labiaux> [labjo] ?
— [ju] : Es <yurta> [jurta] vs Fr <yourte> [juRt] ?
— [wa] : Es <cual> [kwal] vs Fr <quoi> [kwa] ?
— [we] : Es <fuego> [fwego] vs Fr <fouet> [fwe] ?
— [aj] : Es <aire> [ajre] vs Fr <ail> [aj] ?
— [jaj] : Es <negociáis> [neGoTjajs] vs Fr <piaille> [pjaj] ?

Pour les symboles phonétiques, c'est le système X-SAMPA, un équivalent de l'API : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-SAMPA .


---->>>RESPONSE TO YOUR QUESTION.

Hierba can be written as "yerba" and well it is pronounced as jerba...just with some glideness to make it sound smoother. thus, it changes to 'Y' or "i" in spelling, while it could be written and understood: for example,

Ierba/hierba/yerba or jerba. (THE ONLY REASON IT'S SPELLED "HIERBA" is to make it closer to latin "herba." Which I've heard people pronounced
"hierba" like this--->> Hi-erba (with the h sound "hi" for spanish) and for english "He" or another example; hi-storia or hu-mano etc. THIS OF COURSE happens, because of "english" interpretation and thus makes it sound more "classical" which the scholars pronounced the "h" in words written in it. WHILE the common people chosed not to, hence vulgar latin.


remember that "classical latin" "i" changed to "j" (in vulgar latin) which de facto, spanish took in very quickly. from j it evolved to "y" being more glide-like in spanish, respectively.


Es <acacia> PRONOUNCED AS "Akathia" in castilian and Akasia in latin american.

: Es <labio> [laBjo] — [ju] : "La-bio or la-bjo
Es <yurta> [jurta] (never heard of this word.) but llurta/yurta/iurta or even jurta as you have it. would be correct in pronounciation. But spelling would be with the y or ll
Es <cual> [kwal] correct.
: Es <fuego> [fwego] correct.
: Es <aire> [---------------->ay-re or ai-re or like you have it Aj-re
— [jaj] : Es <negociáis "nego-thiais" o nego-siais.

Another good example would be "mayor" spanish for bigger/wiser/greater/elder etc.

Latin; "major" which is PRONOUNCED the same thing in spanish, but with a glide-sound towards it in spanish. And so "y" becomes equivalent.
just a tad bit >smoother< like "dictator" latin vs. "dictador" spanish.

Major (latin)
mayor (spanish)
maggiore (italian)
maire (french)
pessoa idosa (portuguese) which took a different way.
Gringo   Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:59 pm GMT
««pessoa idosa (portuguese) which took a different way. »»

Yes, the wrong way for you.

In Portuguese is "maior" or it could also be a "major".
João   Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:54 pm GMT
«Once Spanish and Latin are learnt, it is no great feat to pick up at least a reading knowledge of Portuguese, which is essentially just an old western dialect of Spanish. However, Portuguese pronunciation suffers from a great many complications, too many to go into in detail here.»

This is not true, portuguese is more complex than spanish, more gender terms and a biger phonetic amplitude, so I'd say once portuguese and latin are learnt, its much easier to learn spanish.

Portuguese is not a old western spanish dialect not even galician, they just developed along with galician, catalan wich are diferent languages with of course, their normal similarities.

Nevertheless it was a good post.
Guest   Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:39 pm GMT
Why do you need to learn latin to learn a latin language that is already much Latin? If you learn portuguese is it necessary to learn latin to learn spanish?
Gringo   Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:11 pm GMT
««
«Once Spanish and Latin are learnt, it is no great feat to pick up at least a reading knowledge of Portuguese, which is essentially just an old western dialect of Spanish. However, Portuguese pronunciation suffers from a great many complications, too many to go into in detail here.»

This is not true, portuguese is more complex than spanish, more gender terms and a biger phonetic amplitude, so I'd say once portuguese and latin are learnt, its much easier to learn spanish.

Portuguese is not a old western spanish dialect not even galician, they just developed along with galician, catalan wich are diferent languages with of course, their normal similarities.»»

Very good João, you are right Portuguese is not an old dialect of Spanish.

Maybe Luis Zalot could explain his theory why Portuguese is "an old western dialect of Spanish".


1-The first known change that characterises the romance Galician-Portuguese is the affricate tš (africada tš) around the VI century.


2-The first document that already has Portuguese words written is from 870 d.C,(remember everything was written in Latin but people no longer spoke Latin).
The several documents that appear at this time are known as Proto-Portuguese or Portuguese protohistoric.

3-Castilian was born in the IX century when the region that would become the county of Castile was re-populated by Cantabrian, Asturian, and Bascos.

It must be very easy to explain how Portuguese, that can trace its evolution directly from Latin already on the VI century, and was already appearing in written document on the IX century, could derive from a language that was born on the IX century.