I saw a sign reading "12 items or fewer" in the supermarket today, and it seemed so odd to me that I can't help but wonder whether this is actually grammatical or an instance of hypercorrection. Of course, I wouldn't have a problem with "12 items or fewer than 12 items" or "12 or fewer than 12 items", btw. I can't quite put my finger on why it sounds so strange, and I'm not a native speaker anyway, so I'll just ask: Is "12 items or fewer" grammatical in your dialect and if yes, is it an improvement over "12 items or less" (which, I presume, is grammatical; after all, this is antimoon)? Why don't they just write "up to 12 items" anyway?
12 items or fewer
12 items or fewer sounds very natural to me, on the other hand the other two options sound extremely awkward. Such redundancy is not needed in that case. Think about, what else could thay be referring to but items, "12 items or fewer than twelve cows"
Of course "12 or fewer times" would also sound natural.
Of course "12 or fewer times" would also sound natural.
Technically, you're supposed to use "fewer" with countable things like "items" and "less" with uncountable things like collective nouns. A lot of people don't make that distinction anymore, but it actually is more correct to do so.
"Twelve items or fewer" is grammatically correct in every dialect of English. Not sure why it sounds weird to you.
"Twelve items or fewer" is grammatically correct in every dialect of English. Not sure why it sounds weird to you.
>>Technically, you're supposed to use "fewer" with countable things like "items" and "less" with uncountable things like collective nouns. A lot of people don't make that distinction anymore, but it actually is more correct to do so.<<
You mean that prescriptive grammarians say that such is "more correct", that is. In many English dialects such a distinction does not exist to begin with today, and consequently in the context of such one cannot truly say that "fewer" is more correct than "less", using "correct" in the linguistic sense thereof.
>>"Twelve items or fewer" is grammatically correct in every dialect of English. Not sure why it sounds weird to you.<<
At least in the dialect here, "twelve items or less" is what would be actually used by most if not a significant majority here. "Twelve items or fewer" is really only something you say if you are quite consciously trying to follow said "rule" here, and its usage is likely limited only to the small few who actually care about such notions. If anything, its use is likely to make one sound like a pedantic ass more than anything else here.
You mean that prescriptive grammarians say that such is "more correct", that is. In many English dialects such a distinction does not exist to begin with today, and consequently in the context of such one cannot truly say that "fewer" is more correct than "less", using "correct" in the linguistic sense thereof.
>>"Twelve items or fewer" is grammatically correct in every dialect of English. Not sure why it sounds weird to you.<<
At least in the dialect here, "twelve items or less" is what would be actually used by most if not a significant majority here. "Twelve items or fewer" is really only something you say if you are quite consciously trying to follow said "rule" here, and its usage is likely limited only to the small few who actually care about such notions. If anything, its use is likely to make one sound like a pedantic ass more than anything else here.
Is "12 items or fewer" grammatical in your dialect and if yes, is it an improvement over "12 items or less"
There are still expresions where "fewer" or "less" are not interchangeable.
But this isn't one of them.
The use of "less" with both countable and uncountable plurals has been gaining currency for many years.
"12 items or less" is fine.
There are still expresions where "fewer" or "less" are not interchangeable.
But this isn't one of them.
The use of "less" with both countable and uncountable plurals has been gaining currency for many years.
"12 items or less" is fine.
>>Is "12 items or fewer" grammatical in your dialect and if yes, is it an improvement over "12 items or less"<<
I should have stated above that "12 items or fewer" is still *grammatical* in the dialect here, but at the same time it is not more preferred but rather *less* preferred in practice than "12 items or less", which is what most people normally use here.
I should have stated above that "12 items or fewer" is still *grammatical* in the dialect here, but at the same time it is not more preferred but rather *less* preferred in practice than "12 items or less", which is what most people normally use here.
I am a Californian, and I find "12 items or fewer" somewhat formal. I would probably say "12 items or less".
In the UK '12 items or less' is what you would usually see, although it would more likely be '5 items or less'.
As above, in the UK it's always "x items or less" although some people have been complaining for years that it should say "fewer". Personally I don't really care as long as I get served promptly!!
Although "12 items or less" is what I would usually say (and, I think, it's what I've more often seen in supermarkets), but "12 items or fewer" doesn't seem unnatural or non-native to me.
the gray area of item :)
a bag of five apples could be considered a) one bag or b) five individual apples is up to the supermarket and good thing is most supermarkets choose a).
a bag of five apples could be considered a) one bag or b) five individual apples is up to the supermarket and good thing is most supermarkets choose a).
> You mean that prescriptive grammarians say that such is "more correct", that is. In many English dialects such a distinction does not exist to begin with today, and consequently in the context of such one cannot truly say that "fewer" is more correct than "less", using "correct" in the linguistic sense thereof.
I see you're still beating the old descriptivist drum. This is fine for scholarly linguistic recording of the development of languages or if venturing into deepest New Guinea to study the native tongues, but for practical use in education etc we must have a standard and the corrollary of that is an element of prescription. One cannot have a standard without prescription. Of course there are different levels of strictness that can be applied but at the end of the day it is necessary to be able to say "X is correct (or standard if you prefer) and Y is wrong (or non-standard).
"12 items or fewer" is correct/standard and "12 items or less" is incorrect/non-standard though common. It sounds common to me too. Less should only be used for non-countable nouns, so "less water", "less time" but "fewer apples" and "fewer people". "a glass of water or less" would be correct.
This reminds me of two more of my retail-related pet hates: "For free" and tautologies such as "PIN number". "Free" is NOT a price, therefore the "for" is redundant so "Buy X and get Y for free" is wrong, "Buy X and get Y free" is correct. As for "PIN number", "ATM machine" and "BHS homestore" why say in effect "Personal Identification Number number" or "British Home Store homestore" or "Automatic Teller Machine machine"?
Null comparisons are not quite as bad but still annoying. "Lasts 10 times as long" - lasts ten times as long as what? 10 times as long as an ice cube in boiling water or 10 times as long as the pyramids?
I see you're still beating the old descriptivist drum. This is fine for scholarly linguistic recording of the development of languages or if venturing into deepest New Guinea to study the native tongues, but for practical use in education etc we must have a standard and the corrollary of that is an element of prescription. One cannot have a standard without prescription. Of course there are different levels of strictness that can be applied but at the end of the day it is necessary to be able to say "X is correct (or standard if you prefer) and Y is wrong (or non-standard).
"12 items or fewer" is correct/standard and "12 items or less" is incorrect/non-standard though common. It sounds common to me too. Less should only be used for non-countable nouns, so "less water", "less time" but "fewer apples" and "fewer people". "a glass of water or less" would be correct.
This reminds me of two more of my retail-related pet hates: "For free" and tautologies such as "PIN number". "Free" is NOT a price, therefore the "for" is redundant so "Buy X and get Y for free" is wrong, "Buy X and get Y free" is correct. As for "PIN number", "ATM machine" and "BHS homestore" why say in effect "Personal Identification Number number" or "British Home Store homestore" or "Automatic Teller Machine machine"?
Null comparisons are not quite as bad but still annoying. "Lasts 10 times as long" - lasts ten times as long as what? 10 times as long as an ice cube in boiling water or 10 times as long as the pyramids?
"[F]or practical use in education etc we must have a standard and the corrollary of that is an element of prescription. One cannot have a standard without prescription... at the end of the day it is necessary to be able to say "X is correct (or standard if you prefer) and Y is wrong (or non-standard).
A "standard" is fine for the language equivalent of boot camp - particularly the arbitrary requirement to hammer a set of grammatical conventions into folks learning a second language. But, once they achieve an advanced level of fluency, students have to discern that "all is not what it seems" in a language.
They soon begin to realize that "Standard English" is a fiction.
"'12 items or fewer' is correct/standard and '12 items or less' is incorrect/non-standard though common. It sounds common to me too."
That last sentence was all you needed to say; your judgment on the matter simply boils down to personal dislike for a particular expression of speech. You obviously know better than millions and millions of perfectly fluent native speakers what is "correct."
Well, you must feel better for getting that off your chest I suppose.
A "standard" is fine for the language equivalent of boot camp - particularly the arbitrary requirement to hammer a set of grammatical conventions into folks learning a second language. But, once they achieve an advanced level of fluency, students have to discern that "all is not what it seems" in a language.
They soon begin to realize that "Standard English" is a fiction.
"'12 items or fewer' is correct/standard and '12 items or less' is incorrect/non-standard though common. It sounds common to me too."
That last sentence was all you needed to say; your judgment on the matter simply boils down to personal dislike for a particular expression of speech. You obviously know better than millions and millions of perfectly fluent native speakers what is "correct."
Well, you must feel better for getting that off your chest I suppose.