The vowels in ''father'' and ''bother''?

SpaceFlight   Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:15 am GMT
Do you pronounce the vowels in ''father'' and ''bother'' the same or differently? For me, they're definitely same and I used to think all Americans pronounced them with the same vowels.
Lazar   Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:30 am GMT
They're different for me.

father - [fAD@`]

bother - [bQD@`]

This distinction is common here in Eastern New England, but elsewhere in North America they're almost always merged.
Mxsmanic   Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:15 am GMT
In standard English the same vowel is used for both words, a low back unrounded vowel.
Guest   Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:34 pm GMT
>>In standard English the same vowel is used for both words, a low back unrounded vowel.<<

You must mean standard "North American" English, right?
Lazar   Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:50 pm GMT
<<You must mean standard "North American" English, right?>>

Yes, that's what he meant. The father-bother merger is pretty much nonexistent outside of North America.

In English English:

father - [fAD@]

bother - [bQD@]

In Australian English:

father - [fa:D@]

bother - [bOD@]
Guest   Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:03 pm GMT
Thank you, Lazar!
Frances   Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:04 pm GMT
Different for me too. I should start recording some of these.
Uriel   Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:39 am GMT
Same for me.
Guest   Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:45 am GMT
In standard Mxsmanic-English the same vowel is used for both words, a low back unrounded vowel.
Al   Tue Oct 11, 2005 12:57 am GMT
<<In standard Mxsmanic-English the same vowel is used for both words, a low back unrounded vowel.>>

Good one! As for me, I don't have the same vowel for both.

In my accent:

father - /fA@D@`/

bother - /bAD@`/
Lazar   Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:00 am GMT
<<In my accent:

father - /fA@D@`/

bother - /bAD@`/>>

That's interesting. I've heard of the father-bother distinction being preserved in New Jersey, but not in New York.
Richard   Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:00 am GMT
Same for me.
Chris   Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:08 am GMT
In RP "father" takes the "bath" (or "palm" vowel) - namely broad 'a', just like In GenAm (except that in RP the broad 'a' has a slightly more open quality - it's slightly broader that is). "Bother", on the other hand, takes the "lot" vowel RP (which sounds more like a short 'o' sound that an 'ah' sound. In addition, both words are rhotic in GA but non-rhotic in RP. They are also non-rhotic in most other English accents and in some American accents, but where RP leaves a trace of an 'r' sound at the end, other accents, like Cockney or Brooklynese make the last syllable sound like 'ah' or 'uh', thus making the words sound as if they were spelled "botha" or "fatha".
Brian   Tue Oct 11, 2005 2:16 am GMT
"but where RP leaves a trace of an 'r' sound at the end"

RP leaves no trace of an 'r' sound since it is non-rhotic.
Kirk   Tue Oct 11, 2005 3:20 am GMT
<<RP leaves no trace of an 'r' sound since it is non-rhotic.>>

Right. The only time RP has [r] in words like "father" or "bother" is when the following word starts with a vowel. The underlying representations of RP ["fA:D@] and ["bQD@] are /fAD@r/ and /bQD@r/, respectively. So, here are the following utterances in RP:

"My father is nice"

[maI "fA:D@r\ I:z naIs]

"My father cooks well"

[maI "fA:D@ k_hUks wE5]

There is no trace of /r/ in the second example--it simply doesn't show up on the phomemic level in that particular phonological environment.