Past perfect

Cathy   Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:27 am GMT
Hi,
I've got a question concerning the past perfect tense. The past perfect is used for actions that happened before an action in the past. But what if I tell a story in the past tense and go back in time and want to describe such a sequence of events - do I use the past perfect for both events or not?
Example: "... Suddenly a man sat down next to me. It was the same man I had met before I had gone to England. We started talking ..."
Or is "It was the same man I had met before I went to England" correct?
Guest   Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:18 am GMT
You use it for both actions.
Glikeria   Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:36 am GMT
Hello, Cathy,
I'm glad to join in, because there are some points in the Past Perfect I can't comprehend, eg.
<Bob left university before he'd taken his final exams.>
Why on earth not
Bob HAD left university before he TOOK ( had a chance to take) his final exams.??
Cathy   Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:35 pm GMT
Thanks!!
Glikeria, I think both of your versions are possible. But I can't really explain why. Maybe (hopefully) someone else has a satisfying explanation for us.
Ant_222   Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:09 pm GMT
You can use simple past when the sequence of actions is still clear.

1. Bob left university before he took his final exams.
2. Bob had left university before he took his final exams.
3. Bob left university before he had taken his final exams.

Number 1 is ok, because even without Past Perfect everything is clear.
Number 2 is ok too. However, such sentence emphasizes the precedence of Bob's leaving to the date of the final exams. For example:

«I found your keys after you had left. So I couldn't give them back to you.»

But «I found your keys after you left» is also ok.

Number 3 is ok too. It probably emphasizes that Bob was close to take the exams and left suddenly.
Ant_222   Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:19 pm GMT
To Cathy:
I am not native, and I think that

«It was the man I met before I went to England» is ok. But I am not sure.
Milky   Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:09 pm GMT
Yes, you only need to use the past perfect for the first action. The first action locates us in time, i.e. the past before the past of Now, and the rest of tha actions should be clearly understood as sharing that time.

E.G."I hadn't eaten, slept or felt well for days."
Guest   Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:41 pm GMT
No, you can't. "slept" and "felt" are past participles in that sentence, not simple past.
Ant_222   Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:08 pm GMT
So, what about
«It was the man I met before I went to England»?
Guest   Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:45 pm GMT
No, you can't. "slept" and "felt" are past participles in that sentence, not simple past.
Ant_222   Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:07 pm GMT
I know about "slept" and "felt"...

Milky's example may be not very good, but he can be right nevertheless...