Do you really substitute d for th when you talk? Because most people don't, so I don't know why it's become such a popular shortcut.
textbook
>>Do you really substitute d for th when you talk? Because most people don't, so I don't know why it's become such a popular shortcut.<<
You do realize that some NAE-speakers (at least myself and many others from the Milwaukee area) do do such for /D/, even though the one's I've heard primarily do it in word-initial position (and in certain cases word-final position), and do not so such medially. One note though is that when following words ending in unvoiced consonants, it is not a [d] as much as a [t] (note that this is never aspirated, so it may sound to many like /d/), or when following various sibilants it may be [s], [S], [z], [Z], or when following various nasals it may be [n].
You do realize that some NAE-speakers (at least myself and many others from the Milwaukee area) do do such for /D/, even though the one's I've heard primarily do it in word-initial position (and in certain cases word-final position), and do not so such medially. One note though is that when following words ending in unvoiced consonants, it is not a [d] as much as a [t] (note that this is never aspirated, so it may sound to many like /d/), or when following various sibilants it may be [s], [S], [z], [Z], or when following various nasals it may be [n].
How much of that is real, and how much of that is affectation, though? I know it's based on a real dialect (that's why I said "most people"), but I think it also tends to be popular with a certain age range -- and then they grow out of it.
"Do you really substitute d for th when you talk?"
Yes I do Uriel. all my american friends do too. Besides, it's easier to use "d" rather than the 2 letters "th"
"what da...?"
Yes I do Uriel. all my american friends do too. Besides, it's easier to use "d" rather than the 2 letters "th"
"what da...?"
Then where are you? I can see a non-native speaker having trouble with "th" since it doesn't exist in a lot of languages, but "th" isn't a more difficult sound than "d" for a native speaker.
>>How much of that is real, and how much of that is affectation, though? I know it's based on a real dialect (that's why I said "most people"), but I think it also tends to be popular with a certain age range -- and then they grow out of it. <<
The thing is that at least here, people seem to pronounce word-initial /D/ as things other than [D] without much thought, rather than such being intentional; as I mention later, personally, things are actually the other way around. Also, it at least locally seems to be probably a general across-the-board feature in the dialect in the area I am from, considering that at least from the impressions of some who are not from said area (such as from Indiana), significant stopping of word-initial /D/ is a noticable feature of such, alongside things like very long vowels and like.
>>Then where are you? I can see a non-native speaker having trouble with "th" since it doesn't exist in a lot of languages, but "th" isn't a more difficult sound than "d" for a native speaker. <<
I normally consistently pronounce /D/ as [D] medially, and usually finally. However, I normally do not consistently pronounce word-initial /D/ as [D], except in formal speech, and for extended periods of speech, at least for me, such requires a degree of conscious thought; while I will generally automatically pronounce single words with [D], I will generally automatically use other phones, in particular [d], [z], and [t] for word-initial /D/ in extended speech if I do not think about such at all.
The thing is that at least here, people seem to pronounce word-initial /D/ as things other than [D] without much thought, rather than such being intentional; as I mention later, personally, things are actually the other way around. Also, it at least locally seems to be probably a general across-the-board feature in the dialect in the area I am from, considering that at least from the impressions of some who are not from said area (such as from Indiana), significant stopping of word-initial /D/ is a noticable feature of such, alongside things like very long vowels and like.
>>Then where are you? I can see a non-native speaker having trouble with "th" since it doesn't exist in a lot of languages, but "th" isn't a more difficult sound than "d" for a native speaker. <<
I normally consistently pronounce /D/ as [D] medially, and usually finally. However, I normally do not consistently pronounce word-initial /D/ as [D], except in formal speech, and for extended periods of speech, at least for me, such requires a degree of conscious thought; while I will generally automatically pronounce single words with [D], I will generally automatically use other phones, in particular [d], [z], and [t] for word-initial /D/ in extended speech if I do not think about such at all.
That's interesting. As far as I can tell, I always have /D/ and /T/ realized as [D] and [T] in my dialect (and I don't have to think about it, they just are that way naturally).
Yes, that's an interesting phenomenon. Like Kirk, I always pronounce /T/ and /D/ as [D] and [T]. Realizing them as [t], [d], or [z] would seem out of place in the dialect here.
>>Yes, that's an interesting phenomenon. Like Kirk, I always pronounce /T/ and /D/ as [D] and [T]. Realizing them as [t], [d], or [z] would seem out of place in the dialect here.<<
Things are not that simple here, as the behavior of /D/ and /T/ in my dialect are not symmetric. When it doesn't have anything to assimilate to, /T/ here is preserved as [T], and when it does assimilate, word-initially it assimilates to /t/ as the affricate [tT] (you can tell this is an affricate, as the preceding /t/ will still be often realized as [?]) and sibilants as [s], medially it assimilates to sibilants as [s] (which is very common in NAE), and word-finally it assimilates to sibilants as [s] and on occasion to /t/ as [t]. /D/ on the other hand, word-initially will assimilate in as about as many manners as possible to just about any non-sonorant that isn't labial or velar, and labials and velars it will still assimilate to voicing-wise and nasality-wise; furthermore, it will very often be [d] without any consonants to assimilate to or before assimilation to a preceding consonant. Across the board, word-initial /T/ is far better preserved than word-initial /D/, which is basically a phoneme trying to find something to assimilate to, and which will be stopped one way or another in many cases without such assimilation.
As for the why part of all of this, I can't definitively say anything. My guess though would be that somehow the phonology of the English of many settlers here whose native language was not English managed to not really get "fixed", and managed to be learned as such by people here whose native language was English. Furthermore, such somehow managed to not get diluted by outside English forms. So why the reason for my guess? It's consistent with other apparent similar survivals, such as the usage of the preposition "by" to mean "at" and the use of the word "yah", which cannot be easily explained by being native English forms.
Also, I remember a study here by the UW Madison Linguistics Dept., which basically showed that locally conservative forms have not been diluted here amongst people about my age (which is what the naive assumption would be), but rather have been *concentrated*, with younger individuals' speech with respect to such often being closer to their grandparents' speech than their parents' speech. Of course, the guess for why such would be so is that individuals are actually subconsciously choosing locally distinctive forms over more "standard" forms, which would not only select forms like the NCVS, but also would select locally conservative forms as well.
Things are not that simple here, as the behavior of /D/ and /T/ in my dialect are not symmetric. When it doesn't have anything to assimilate to, /T/ here is preserved as [T], and when it does assimilate, word-initially it assimilates to /t/ as the affricate [tT] (you can tell this is an affricate, as the preceding /t/ will still be often realized as [?]) and sibilants as [s], medially it assimilates to sibilants as [s] (which is very common in NAE), and word-finally it assimilates to sibilants as [s] and on occasion to /t/ as [t]. /D/ on the other hand, word-initially will assimilate in as about as many manners as possible to just about any non-sonorant that isn't labial or velar, and labials and velars it will still assimilate to voicing-wise and nasality-wise; furthermore, it will very often be [d] without any consonants to assimilate to or before assimilation to a preceding consonant. Across the board, word-initial /T/ is far better preserved than word-initial /D/, which is basically a phoneme trying to find something to assimilate to, and which will be stopped one way or another in many cases without such assimilation.
As for the why part of all of this, I can't definitively say anything. My guess though would be that somehow the phonology of the English of many settlers here whose native language was not English managed to not really get "fixed", and managed to be learned as such by people here whose native language was English. Furthermore, such somehow managed to not get diluted by outside English forms. So why the reason for my guess? It's consistent with other apparent similar survivals, such as the usage of the preposition "by" to mean "at" and the use of the word "yah", which cannot be easily explained by being native English forms.
Also, I remember a study here by the UW Madison Linguistics Dept., which basically showed that locally conservative forms have not been diluted here amongst people about my age (which is what the naive assumption would be), but rather have been *concentrated*, with younger individuals' speech with respect to such often being closer to their grandparents' speech than their parents' speech. Of course, the guess for why such would be so is that individuals are actually subconsciously choosing locally distinctive forms over more "standard" forms, which would not only select forms like the NCVS, but also would select locally conservative forms as well.
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