Little words in English of foreign origin

Aldvs   Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:37 am GMT
<<I noticed that my family's pronounciation of things with a "gua" sound..>

Even it happens in inverse way, some people add the "g" and say "Güella" instead of "huella" (footprint) or "güeso" for "hueso" (bone).
Tiffany   Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:05 am GMT
A difference does exist in English, as it does in Italian. I am pretty sure it exists in French, though I am not sure about Portuguese. I know in Japanese, no distinct "r" or "l" exist and they cannot tell the difference. Might this be a similar situatuion? Are these sounds you cannot hear the difference between?
Uriel   Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:54 am GMT
V and B are usually pronounced the same in the Spanish spoken around here, as well. It's sort of an in-between sound, but it's more like an English V than an English B. But still, not *exactly* the same as an English V.

(In English, the lips are touching when you start a B, but slightly apart, with the upper teeth touching the lower lip, when you make a V, so the two sounds are distinctly different.)

But if you look at Spanish names you can see that B's and V's are often interchangeable, because you have such variants as Barela/Varela, Baca/Vaca, Rubalcava/Ruvalcaba, Venegas/Banegas, Balderrama/Valderrama.
Aldvs   Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:17 pm GMT
<<(In English, the lips are touching when you start a B, but slightly apart, with the upper teeth touching the lower lip, when you make a V, so the two sounds are distinctly different.) >>

What I was thinking, the V then is almost a F, isn't it ?
LAA   Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:08 pm GMT
There really is no exact English equivalent per se. But, a "V" sound is the closest comparision one can make. Jonothan Mark just insisted on arguing over a little trivial detail for arguing's sake.
Tiffany   Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:26 pm GMT
I do agree that the sound is between a "b" and a "v", but I would peg it as a "b" sound, rather than a "v" sound. So I disagree that Jonathan's remark is trivial.

Perhaps that was the point he was trying to make, that it sounds like a "b" to him and he was not sure how we could have gotten a "v" sound (such as in savvy) with it. It's a plausible argument to me.
Sergio   Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:34 pm GMT
Hi Johnathan Mark,
>>Also, you need to realize that [B] (the b in sabe) is not the same as [v]. [v] Does not exist in most dialects of Spanish.

You were doing it just well.... till you mentioned the unexistent "dialects" of Spanish.

Hi LAA,
>>As far as I know, Mexico has always been pronounced (me-hi-ko) in Spanish, which the native peoples of Mexico to this day resent.

I wouldn't be quite sure about either of your assumptions. The phonetics of Spanish has underwent some changes since the XVIth century, and one of the most significant would be the pronountiation of the graphem "x". On the other hand, since this is a name of Nahuatl origin, a language spoken by (saddly) fewer people everyday, there is no such resent about that.

And finally, the pronountiation of "b" and "v" in Spanish is undoubtely quite unstable, with some zones prefering the "v" sound (like in English "vase") but the majority of the Spanish speaking zones having the tendency to fusionate both pronountiations towards the "b" sound (like "borrow" in English). This is valid for Spain and Latinamerica.

It is funny, but one of the most common errors made by Spanish speakers when speaking other languages, including other Romance languages, is to keep ignoring that THERE IS a difference made between both sounds in most of the other languages (I have noticed this in English, French, German, Italian and Portuguese).
Aldvs   Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:33 pm GMT
<<I know in Japanese, no distinct "r" or "l" exist and they cannot tell the difference.>>

This is because there is no word in Japaneses with the sound "L" then the "R" makes the work, this is applied to foreign words of course. I think that in Chinese this happens in inverse way. At least for people who has not learned to pronounce such letters.

flores = flowers
frores = Japanese

gracias = thanks
glacias = Chinese

<<It is funny, but one of the most common errors made by Spanish speakers when speaking other languages, including other Romance languages, is to keep ignoring that THERE IS a difference made between both sounds in most of the other>>

Maybe, but is it so important that people couldn't understand you ?
Joey   Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:14 pm GMT
Portuguese also has certain parts of the country changing there b's for v's but mainly in the north of the country.
So 'sabe' would be pronounced 'save'.
Even though there are certain cases that they won't such as in 'bem' meaning 'well' while 'vem' means come.
They will only change the b's for v's if it doesn't change the meaning of the word.
Sergio   Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:25 pm GMT
Hi Aldvs!!!

I am glad to read you again!!
>>Maybe, but is it so important that people couldn't understand you ?

I understand your question in this meaning:
Quizás, pero ¿es esto tan importante como para que la gente no te entienda?

If this is your question my answer is "it depends". Example:
Vowel: Vocal
Bowel: Intestino, vísceras

Vase: Jarrón
Base: Base

In German:
Beil: Hacha
Weil: porque (because)

Besides, why should we tend to neglect a feature that is important in all these languages, just because we happen to have such a simple phonetic system? I think, if one really wants to achieve a good pronountiation in a foreign language, it would be a good advice to take care of these details as well, don't you think?

p.s. me quedé esperando tu explicación sobre el origen de "gringo". :-)
LAA   Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:22 am GMT
"me quedé esperando tu explicación sobre el origen de "gringo". :-) "

I have heard the craziest explanations on that issue so many times, from different people. Many uninformed ones believe it to be the result of the Mexicans telling the Yankee soldiers in broken English, "Green - Go!", as in, "You Greencoats leave our country!". This of course refers to the American invasion of Mexico in the Mexican-American war. However, this is clearly false, because if one knows anything of his military history, he would know that the U.S. army did not adopt the green uniform until around WWI in the 20th century! At the time of the Mexican-American war, American soldiers wore blue uniforms, not green!

The first person to tell me this misconception was my grandfather, who uses "gringo"
Gringo   Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:05 am GMT
««so I would tend to think of savvy as a Spanish borrowing. Quibbling over a Spanish or Portuguese origin is a little silly, when the word in question would be pretty similar in either language»»

Not just a little silly, it is very silly. It is the same word in Portuguese and Spanish:

Portuguese »»sabe
Spanish »»sabe



««Portuguese also has certain parts of the country changing there b's for v's but mainly in the north of the country.
So 'sabe' would be pronounced 'save'.»»


“Sabe” is NEVER pronounced as “save”. And it is the other way round: in the north people use the “B” instead of “V”. The oldest spelling is with the “B”.

“Bou ber se a baca oube-me assobiar”.
“Vou ver se a vaca ouve-me assoviar”.

"Bou ber se a baca SABE assobiar".
"Vou ver se vaca SABE assoviar".



Phoenician had no “V” Greek had no “V” most probably Celt-Iberian had no “V” although there were people or tribes named with “V”, by the Romans, the Greeks had a different spelling for them.
Aldvs   Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:09 am GMT
Que tal Sergio?

<<If this is your question my answer is "it depends". Example:
Vowel: Vocal
Bowel: Intestino, vísceras >>

Yes, that's a good reason but I think it's not the end of the world either. :-)

We have that kind of words too:

llama = Southamerican animal
llama = flame
llama = (he/she/it) calls
Llama = surname

vaso = glass
bazo = spleen
baso = (I) base
Baso = surname

All sound exactly but the way somebody will understand them depends on the context of course.

<<I think, if one really wants to achieve a good pronountiation in a foreign language, it would be a good advice to take care of these details as well, don't you think? >>

Yes, that's true.

<<me quedé esperando tu explicación sobre el origen de "gringo". >>

La verdad es que junto con el tema de "americano" son temas "padrisimos" pero tambien son como tabu por estos lares. Ya han habido excelentes debates de ellos pero lastimosamente han sido borrados y desgraciadamente fue por mi culpa pues hay momentos que comienzo a "chingar" un poco mas de la cuenta pues esos temas son como si me "madrearan". LOL!
Aldvs   Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:16 am GMT
<<At the time of the Mexican-American war, American soldiers wore blue uniforms, not green! >>

Yes, possibly that's the weakest argument of this matter.

I prefer the one about the "green grow the lilacs" song.
Uriel   Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:44 am GMT
<<What I was thinking, the V then is almost a F, isn't it ? >>

Well, no, because V is voiced and F is not, so they sound different.

<<I do agree that the sound is between a "b" and a "v", but I would peg it as a "b" sound, rather than a "v" sound.>>

Now that I think about it, they seem to have both, but not where I, as an English-speaker, would always put them. For instance, "Veronica" is often pronounced as if it starts with a B (Bay-ro-ni-ca), but when my ex said the word "vibora" (snake -- sorry, don't know how to type accents), it sounded more like "vivora", and I didn't get it until I saw the word in print. So often to me they sound like they're flip-flopped from what they "should" be.