Does France deserve its name?

l'haitien   Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:04 pm GMT
Well, if France does not deserve its name because its people are not ethinically Franks and don't frankish or a germanic language, then Britain shouldn't Britain either. The name Britain deriving the celtic tribes of ancient Briatania. Britain today is a germanic speaking country where just a the few minority of people in Wales still speak the old celtic tongue. Scottish Gaelic being imported from Ireland during the early middle ages. By the way Belgium shouldn't be Belgium either since its poeple have nothing to do with and ancient gallica tribes of belgica. No to come back to France, that country is a true modern continuation of the Frankish state established in the middle ages. The Frankish state in Gaul was never conquered nor ceased to exist through rebellion by the gallo-roman people. That state (land of the Franks, Francia) incorporated the gallo-roman and franks. And after centuries of co-existence those two people intermingled and became one (the French).
One big hypothesis. If the Norman French invaders from Normandy had succeeded in establishing their French language upon the kingdom they came to conquer and rule (England), I'm sure that that country would still be called England, though French speaking. Instead English just came to inherit a vast majority of its vocabulary from French (vocabulary/vocabulaire, language/langage, just/just, establish/etablir, lamp/lampe, point/point, balance/balance, prudent/prudent, parliament/parlement, conquer/conquerir, ancient/ancien, exist/exister, rebellion/rebellion, beef/boeuf, mutton/mouton, pork/porc, reason/raison, etc...)
Libelle Reiher   Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:55 pm GMT
l'haitien,

You make some interesting points that can't be ignored. To me, France is an anomaly because of its roots. I understand what you are saying about Britain, but England itself is still considered a constituent country and can be considered separate in identity from the Celtic nations surrounding it. When I lived in England I knew someone whose father was Welsh and whose mother was English. Many of the people still make generalized comments about physical stature, etc. I'm sure some of it is tongue-in-cheek, but the man I knew was saying that he was "built like a Celt," which he said meant having short legs with a long torso, whereas being built like a Germanic/Angle/Englishman was considered to be having longer legs, etc. In this day and age we all know that the physical traits of the Celts, Gauls, Germans, and Romans have been diluted, to be sure, but you can see a difference when you travel to the north of France from the south. I lived in Bretagne for a time, which you know has a considerable Celtic heritage, but you could also see some Germanic/Viking/Norman influence there; there were many blonde-haired, blue/green-eyed people walking around.

In short, I guess France is hard to classify because it has an exceptionally mixed heritage. Even the French themselves often say they do not consider themselves to be a "Latin country." When I lived there I just thought it was considered a "Latin country" because of the Romance language its inhabitants speak. Many French people object to this classification quite vehemently and were quick to remind me of their Frankish heritage. Odd...
Pete   Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:16 pm GMT
I think this kind of question is pointless. France is the name of that beautiful country and that's that. Nothing to argue about.

Kind regards
Adam   Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:52 am GMT
The Franks or the Frankish peoples were one of several west Germanic federations. They were not originally grouped into one official tribe, but "as with the other barbarians, they belonged to much smaller groups that would join constantly changing confederations."[1] The confederation was formed out of Germanic tribes: Salians, Sicambri, Chamavi, Tencteri, Chattuarii, Bructeri, Usipetes, Ampsivarii, Chatti.

They entered the late Roman Empire from the north and east river bank of the Rhine into northern Belgium or Flanders and modern southern Netherlands, where they were accepted as a foederati (AD 358). Later they conquered and established a lasting realm (sometimes referred to as Francia) in an area which eventually covered most of modern-day France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and the western regions of Germany (Franconia, Rhineland, Münsterland, Hesse), forming the historic kernel of all these modern countries. The conversion to Christianity of the pagan Frankish king Clovis in the late 5th century was a crucial event in the history of Europe.

The Frankish realm underwent many partitions and repartitions since the Franks divided their property among surviving sons and, lacking a broad sense of a res publica, they conceived of the realm as a large extent of private property. This practice explains, in part, the difficulty of precisely describing the dates and physical boundaries of any of the Frankish kingdoms and who ruled the various sections. The contraction of literacy while the Franks ruled compounds the problem: they produced few written records. In essence, however, two dynasties of leaders succeeded each other; first the Merovingians and then the Carolingians.

Carolingian histories asserted that the Merovingian kings were descended from the Sicambri, a Germanic tribe, asserting that this tribe had changed their name to "Franks" in 11 BC, following their defeat and relocation by Drusus, under the leadership of a certain chieftain called Francio. The Chronicle of Fredegar is the earliest source for this chieftain, and it is widely agreed among historians (including A. C. Murray, Ian Woods, Rosamund McKetterick and J. M. Wallace-Hadrill) that Francio is a Fredegarian invention.

The ethnonym has also been traced to a *frankon—"javelin, lance" (Old English franca, compare the Saxons, named after the seax (knife), and the Lombards, named after the battle-axe—the throwing axe of the Franks is known as the Francisca) but, conversely, the weapon may also have been named after the tribe. A. C. Murray says, 'The etymology of Franci is uncertain ('the fierce ones' is the favourite explanation), but the name is undoubtedly of Germanic origin.' [2]

The meaning of "free" (English frank, frankly, franklin) arose because, after the conquest of Gaul, only Franks had the status of freemen.

By the sixth century, two main legal subdivisions existed within the Franks: the Salian ("salty") and the Ripuarian ("river") Franks. By the 9th century, if not earlier, this division had in practice become virtually non-existent but continued, for some time, to have implications for the legal system under which a person could go on trial.

wikipedia.org
j-p.a   Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:55 am GMT
Dear Adam,

If I wish to read Wikipedia, I read it on the WIKIPEDIA WEBSITE. I do not wish to read random quotes here, pasted into messages. Kindly refrain immediately from this sort of behaviour.

Thanking you most kindly

Yours faithfully

j-p.a
j-p.a   Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:05 pm GMT
BTW Adam, will you teach me English?

Many thanks and great appreciation

j-p.a
John   Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:37 pm GMT
Did Franks carry an inherent skill and doctrine for government? The Swedes had a skill which Ukrainian Kiev invited from those "Russ" rulers.
Franks are thought to have come from the north, and "merovingian" from "mero.vich" meaning great.son , may relate to Norse "Maere" temple.
The Frank "major.dome" great. steward, became "mairie" town-hall, and Pepin III as a "maire" formed the Carolingian line of "Franke". Russian
"-mero" is a patronymic as in "Vladi.mero/mir". It may reveal Scythian and Sarmatian influence in Russia, and thus Iranian teachings from Brahmins and their Mount Meru, central world-mountain of governance under Brahma.
Russian, Polish, German, Swedish and Saxon "bram" /brahm/, have meanings about ship top-gallant masts for admirals' and state flags, high, famous, noble. This is the sense of IE brih "praise. expand" Brahma.
Were Merovingians linked to Meru? Brahmins had "frank" freedom as murder of a Brahmin was the greatest offence.
John
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YOU FUCK   Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:20 am GMT
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YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK! YOU FUCK!
YOU FUCK   Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:25 am GMT
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Guest   Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:29 am GMT
"I think many people, (myself included) tend to view this country, and its language, as being influenced by, or more related to Germanic culture and language than we apply to other Romance speaking countries like Spain, Portugal, and Italy. "

To tell the truth is the very first time I've heard of that.....
I do belirve you (and no more people) are thinling wrong.
Besides France is influenced by Germanic culture like the other Romances speaking countries, Italy first.

"It has been an essentially Gallic land, "

an essentially Roman land

"with a Gallo-Roman culture and language since Roman times, "

with a Roman culture and language since Roman times,

"French people see themselves as French, (Gallo-Romance, Latin) and clearly distinct from the Germanic peoples. "

Obviously, I wonder what they might think otherwise

"France derives its name from the fact that, when Charlemagne's vast empire was partitioned among his sons and their successors, the domain which covered the modern borders of France, was known as "West Francia". Because of this, the name of the country eventually became "France". But calling the country "France" is about as silly as calling Italy (Ostrogothia), or Spain (Visigothia). "

I truly wonder: haven't you anything else to think????????