Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?

Guest   Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:52 am GMT
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.
If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too.
An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
The moment he talks he makes some other
Englishman despise him.
One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
Oh, why can't the English learn to set
A good example to people whose
English is painful to your ears?
The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
There even are places where English completely
disappears. In America, they haven't used it for years!
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks have taught their
Greek. In France every Frenchman knows
his language fro "A" to "Zed"
The French never care what they do, actually,
as long as they pronounce in properly.
Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning.
And Hebrews learn it backwards,
which is absolutely frightening.
But use proper English you're regarded as a freak.
Why can't the English,
Why can't the English learn to speak?
Liz   Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:47 pm GMT
That's the highly prescriptivistic point of view of Henry Higgins, of Pygmalion, which is not necessarily true.
Torsten   Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:57 pm GMT
Liz, what exactly do you mean by "prescriptivistic"?
Liz   Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:49 pm GMT
<<Liz, what exactly do you mean by "prescriptivistic"?>>

A prescriptivist is someone (especially a linguists) who prescribes how people should speak, and therefore makes a difference between 'correct' and 'incorrect' language/speech. This often results in the stigmatisation of people who do not actually speak the standard variety of the given language.
zxczxc   Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:50 pm GMT
That's an awful little poem, and bends rules/definitions in a number of places, which is quite ironic.
Kirk   Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:54 pm GMT
<<A prescriptivist is someone (especially a linguists) who prescribes how people should speak, and therefore makes a difference between 'correct' and 'incorrect' language/speech. This often results in the stigmatisation of people who do not actually speak the standard variety of the given language.>>

Right--except linguists aren't the prescriptivists. Prescriptivists tend to be self-appointed language "experts" (linguist Steven Pinker refers to them as the "Language Mavens," using "maven" in a somewhat negative sense) and may know a great deal about so-called language standards yet they often espouse surprisingly unrealistic views about how language actually works. Linguistics as a science has given us great insight into how language works over the past couple of centuries but prescriptivists tend to ignore accepted basic principles of language (such as that living languages are always changing and that language change has never led to a degradation of language).

Anyway, the above poem is nothing new. It's kind of cutesy and it rhymes but it cannot be taken seriously if we're talking about how language actually works.
Liz   Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:34 pm GMT
<<Right--except linguists aren't the prescriptivists. Prescriptivists tend to be self-appointed language "experts" (linguist Steven Pinker refers to them as the "Language Mavens," using "maven" in a somewhat negative sense) and may know a great deal about so-called language standards yet they often espouse surprisingly unrealistic views about how language actually works. Linguistics as a science has given us great insight into how language works over the past couple of centuries but prescriptivists tend to ignore accepted basic principles of language (such as that living languages are always changing and that language change has never led to a degradation of language).>>

Now I stand corrected... I apologise profusely!

You are absolutely right! No real linguist is a prescriptivist. It'd have been more exact to say that these are self-appointed experts, language-cultivators etc. There are some language (native or foreign) teachers who are prescriptivists, but there aren't many of them today, thank God.

I study linguistics at university, and we are taught not to accept the prescriptivist approach because it is absolutely anachronistic. In spite of that, some people happen to forget all the things s/he has learnt, and tend to go back to the naive and old-fashioned concepts of 'correct' and 'incorrect' language. I hear many of them talking about 'the rotting and degradation of our language', which is complete nonsense.

Unfortunately, many of them managed to instil these misconceptions in their students, who will definitely instil them in their children or students. These misconceptions are looked upon as the one and only truth by many adults, and I really get quizzical looks when I try to convince them that what they strongly believe is downright false.
stella   Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:19 am GMT
actually thought it was pretty funny, except the language is called arabic and not arabian. oh well. and what do you mean, no english in the united states? that's like saying the canadians in the french-speaking part of canada do not speak french, which i think we all agree on is absurd. different accents develop even within one and the same country (a french person from the north and one from the south sound completely different, right?), so what's the big deal about the accents? you're right, some people forget every simple rule of grammar while speaking in an accent, but i don't see anything wrong with it as long as they are still able to speak correctly in case they have to.
Robin   Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:26 am GMT
Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.
If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too.

The song comes from a play, in which a Professor attempts to teach a Flower Girl how to speak English. It makes the point that:

If you spoke as she does, sir, Instead of the way you do,
Why, you might be selling flowers, too.

That point of view might sound a little bit old fashioned, but if you are unable to make out what a Scottish person is trying to say, they might as well be some kind of animal.

The song also says:

Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
This verbal class distinction by now should be antique.

What it is saying, is that English Grammar and Pronouciation is not widely taught, and there is no agreed standard. Consequently, how you speak, says a lot about 'how you were brought up!'

I believe that Pygmalion was written by Sir Bernard Shaw who was very interested in Language.
Robin   Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:38 am GMT
The Plot of My Fair Lady, a famous film and play.

Henry Higgins (Rex Harrison), an arrogant, irascible professor of phonetics, boasts to a new acquaintance, Colonel Pickering (Robert Coote), that he can train any woman to speak so "properly" that he could pass her off as a duchess - even Eliza Doolittle (Julie Andrews),
person   Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:51 am GMT
it's just a funny song about language. and the bit about america is on how we don't speak the proper queen's english. it's really quite amusing as long as you take it all with a grain of salt (i.e. it's not a serious thing, just a joke)
Robin   Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:04 am GMT
I am glad that this Topic has found it's way to the top of the heap. If you read the various Posts, you will realise that people do not realise that this song, is very well known, and is part of a famous Musical.

It is also interesting to see that people take it so seriously, and criticise the 'English' language aspects of it.

This is 'English'! After all, there is a saying: "Britainia waives the rules", instead of "Britainia rules the waves".

Bye for now
Venezuela   Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:16 am GMT
Kelly   Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:12 am GMT
In France every Frenchman knows his language fro "A" to "Zed"
The French never care what they do, actually..

I think this would rhyme better:

''In France every Frenchman knows his language fro "A" to "Zee"
The French never care what they do, actually''
Damian in London E16   Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:04 pm GMT
***The French never care what they do, actually'***

C'est trop vrai! Actually, that may well be a good line to follow as it fits their attitude to what they consider to be tiresome EU regulations. If our French pals don't take too kindly to certain directives from Bruxelles....they simply ignore them and hope they'll eventually just go away. Why get bogged down with "crap" that upsets the French applecart? Aaaw......we love them really....well, speaking as a Scot anyway.