French Où.

Guest   Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:03 am GMT
>>Be a little bit more open-minded.

....and much more humble as well!!!!!....be critic, but accept critics from other persons. Otherwise you will continue to make a fool out of yourself.

Guest.
just a guest   Wed Sep 13, 2006 12:10 am GMT
i bet the "laa laa land " is a troll !
Presley.   Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:46 am GMT
O.K.

You really (REALLY!!) have to admit that French is "a lot more Germanic" than it's other Latin siblings.

...oh, wait, I think this is just about the 3,947,203rd time this particular topic has been covered...

I should shut up.
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:53 am GMT
It's not that I'm pushing anyone's beliefs or experiences aside, as if their's don't count. I am just stating that what I speak of as being my personal experiences are true, and not fictitious creations of my imagination.
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:56 am GMT
<<You really (REALLY!!) have to admit that French is "a lot more Germanic" than it's other Latin siblings. >>

Forgive me for using you as an example Presley, but this is exactly what I mean! Most laymen who take a casual interest in foreign cultures and languages, or history or anthropology will out of ignorance, assume that French is the most "Germanic" of the Romance languages, because of the way it sounds to untrained ears. And many who don't know any better also assume that the French are part Frank, and more Germanic than Italians or Spaniards, if not entirely Germanic. Many, many of these types of people do make those assumptions.
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 1:59 am GMT
<<....and much more humble as well!!!!!....be critic, but accept critics from other persons. Otherwise you will continue to make a fool out of yourself.

Guest. >>

I've never been one to heed the words of a coward. If you want to lecture me, then for God's sake, reveal yourself like a man, (or anyone with fortitude) and don't hide behind a false identity. Until then, I have no respect for you.
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:03 am GMT
<<It is absolutly not what I saw when I was in the USA. Most people were learning Spanish, not French.>>

Allow me to elaborate then, although I think in reality, it was not neccessary. By "Germanic speakers" I wasn't including English speakers, but Germans and Dutch and Danes, etc. We have very different phonologies. That is, our pronounciation system in English, is very unique and unusual among other Germanic languages.
Benjamin   Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:45 am GMT
« We have very different phonologies. That is, our pronounciation system in English, is very unique and unusual among other Germanic languages. »

What makes you think that?
Guest   Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:15 am GMT
OU AND DONDE?
VERY DIFFERENT
fab   Wed Sep 13, 2006 8:36 am GMT
" By "Germanic speakers" I wasn't including English speakers "


really? When I think of Germanic languages I think of German and English at same time. Although I agree that English sounds quite softer and looks quite different than German, but, I my opinion it still sound quite "germanic". I don't know really the other germanic languages outside of German and Enlgish, as scandinavian languages, how they sound compared to german ? In french we don't usually center "germanicness" specifically on "Germany", because of the name "Allemagne"(germany). For us 'Germanie' would be the whole germanic-speaking lands of Europe, the UK included and not only "Germany".
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 3:54 pm GMT
<<really? When I think of Germanic languages I think of German and English at same time. Although I agree that English sounds quite softer and looks quite different than German, but, I my opinion it still sound quite "germanic". I don't know really the other germanic languages outside of German and Enlgish, as scandinavian languages, how they sound compared to german ? In french we don't usually center "germanicness" specifically on "Germany", because of the name "Allemagne"(germany). For us 'Germanie' would be the whole germanic-speaking lands of Europe, the UK included and not only "Germany".>>

Right, which is good in my opinion, because it does not exclude other Germanic people from their name. We had this discussion before. But, it's just that in my head, I tend to think of English as being in it's own droor, because, as an English speaker, reading a foreign language text, or listening to others, I can tell you that English feels like it is in between Germanic languages and Latin languages, at least lexically. And then English feels further isolated from other Germanic languages because of the huge differences in phonology. We may sound Germanic to you, and that is probably true, especially the way we pronounce a lot of our consonants. But, as an English speaker, I can tell you that at least from my perspective, other Germanic languages' pronounciation sounds very different from ours. We don't have the same 'r's, we pronounce most of our vowels differently (usually more long), and we don't have gutteral sounds, or hard sounds like the 'ch' of German and Dutch. We have a very distinct phonology within the Germanic family. Other Germanic languages all sound very similar to eachother, as do their accents when speaking English. But English is very easily distinguishable from the other Germanic languages. Perhaps, as a native Romance speaker, we all sound German to you.
Guest   Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:57 pm GMT
>>I've never been one to heed the words of a coward.
I am not being a coward. Using the name 'Guest' is so anonymous as using 'LAA'. So, please don't play the cowboy.


>>If you want to lecture me, then for God's sake, reveal yourself like a man, (or anyone with fortitude) and don't hide behind a false identity.
It is recorded in a bunch of very (unnecessarily) long posts from you, that it is you who normally gives lectures, so make a reflection before writing such things.


>>Until then, I have no respect for you.
I am not looking for your respect, if that is what concerns you so much. I look for a healthy exchange of ideas about linguistics and languages on this forum. I expect to add my comments, but also to learn from other people here, you included, IF you make a serious contribution.
I respect you but this doesn't avoid me to say what I think of you. (you like to write that you are a very direct person, so, then be able to stumble on other direct persons too without crying!!) I have never used bad words at you, I have just expressed why your postings are quite often so irritating for many of us. It would be nice from you if you would behave a little bit more humble and first you learn more, and only then dare to state things in the way you do now....

So, back to the languages please.............
Benjamin   Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:01 pm GMT
« We have a very distinct phonology within the Germanic family. »

Which languages are you actually comparing with English here?

Personally, I find that spoken German seems to 'become' more intelligible with English once one has learnt the High German Consonant Shift (which interestingly doesn't apply to Dutch), the different word order, that infinitives and plural verbs often end in '-en' and that past participles often start with 'ge-', and has spent a few days immersed in it, it's actually quite easy. Especially if you *believe* that you can understand it.

Of course, Germanic languages tend to have their own spelling systems, so German is quite different from English in the written form. But the same is also true for many other Germanic languages compared to German.

As for the German consonant shift... I won't try to explain the linguistic technicalities (because I can't), but I will show you how it works in terms of English vs. German spelling. I'll also include a number of other common spelling equivalents which are not part of this shift:

English — German

c —> k
ch —> tsch
d —> t
f —> p/v
g —> g (always hard)
gh —> ch (guttural)
p —> f/pf/b
s —> t/sch
sh —> sch
t —> ss/ß
th —> d/t
v —> b
y —> g/j (German 'j' is pronounced like English 'y')

Here are just a few examples of German words which follow these patterns. See if you can recognise them:

Tochter
helfen
Vater
Pfeffer
bevor
dass
was
Mutter
denken
Licht
gedacht
Wasser
gebracht
unter
essen
ober
haben
besser
taglig

You also often have to think a bit more literally, for example:

langsam — slow (longsome)
langweilig — boring (long-while-y)
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:09 pm GMT
Calling myself LAA is not anonymous. People on this board know who I am, because of my name. You on the other hand, are a person on this board, who has a name, like myself, with which other people identify you with. Yet, when you want to hand out lectures on morals or life-lessons, rather than posting as yourself, you shamefully, and secretively post under the assumed name of "Guest", which is like signing the Declaration of Independence as "anonymous". I am no more arrogant than anyone else on this board. Quite frankly, we all sound very arrogant, because we all makes claims, or present arguments based on our opinions, our own interpretations of history, foreign countries, or languages. So long as we debate civily, this is not an issue. But, because I debate, and declare my opinions on this board as a teenager, I am now arrogant somehow? Because I'm young, I'm not entitled to express my views as everyone else does? You don't know me. And you have no right to lecture me. If you notice, I have a certain measure of respect for people like Tiffany and Benjamin on this board, who, at times, make reccomendations, but don't abusingly lecture me. I treat them in the same courteous way. Now, Greg or Sander on the other hand, are extremely arrogant, and as such, I don't pay them much attention. You, more than anyone else, are the least deserving of my consideration, because you spinelessly post under an alter-ego.
LAA   Wed Sep 13, 2006 5:15 pm GMT
Well, seeing as how you are far more familiar with German than I am, for you, it is easier to recognize similarities.

<<c —> k
ch —> tsch
d —> t
f —> p/v
g —> g (always hard)
gh —> ch (guttural)
p —> f/pf/b
s —> t/sch
sh —> sch
t —> ss/ß
th —> d/t
v —> b
y —> g/j (German 'j' is pronounced like English 'y') >>

These differences are far too numerous to convert in your head at conversational speed. That is, if you are an English speaker, unfamiliar with German, (while knowing these basic principles for Anglo-German cognates), it would be very difficult to compute all of them when the person you are speaking to is speaking at typical conversational speed. It's almost like you need a Rosetta stone to compute all of the differences.