ATTENTION Native Spanish speakers
I don't think there are any Spaniards on this forum, but there are at least three Mexicans. I have a question on pronounciation.
The V/B thing, and the 'll". My family pronounces most 'b's, as 'v's, while we never pronounce a 'v' like a 'b'. However, I hear many people who often pronounce the 'v' in "vive" as a 'b'. Or, take the name "Viviana" for instance. A lot of people call my mother "Bibiana", that is, they pronounce the 'v's in her name as 'b's. Is this proper? Or is this just a regional accent that some have?
As for the 'll', we always pronounce it similar to the English 'y', as in 'llamo'. But I hear a lot of native Spanish speakers who pronounce their 'll's almost in between an English 'y' and 'g'. It even shows through in their accents while speaking English. For example, they will say:
"Are goo talking to me?", instead of: "Are you talking to me?". Am I the one who is pronouncing it improperly, or are they? Or is it just a matter of regional differences? How do you pronounce these sounds?
P.S. - Oh, and another thing. In my family, words which feature a 'gua', are pronounce as a (whua) sound. But, on Spanish language instructional programs, I often hear people pronounce this sound like an English 'g', that is, hard, as in 'gato'. So they pronounce 'agua' with a hard 'g', as in 'gato', while we don't pronounce the 'g', but instead create a different sound because of the 'gua', which makes a different sound.
Hi LAA,
In Spanish, as in the rest of the Romance languages, there was a clear difference between B and V, being the first one bilabial and the second one labiodental. In Mexico, at least when I was a child, we were thaught about the difference and we knew there was one. This reflects in the orthography, and is really very useful to know them. BUT, for some reason people just tend to ignore this difference, and at least in 80% of the territory (I haven't been to Sonora, Chihuahua and the Baja Californias yet...) people fusion both sounds into a voiced 'B'. I am just pointing out the tendency. If in other Spanish speaking regions the tendency is all the way round I don't know, but I would be surprised, because the articulation effort is the easiest for this voiced 'B', and people even go further in this phenomenon so that they pronounce some consonant clusters adjusting the precedent consonant to this voiced 'B'. They pronounce the word envase like embase (NV implies more movements of the thongue and lips than M+voiced 'B').
In Spain, the tendency is the same, plus the fact that they are thaught "consequently" that there is NO difference at all between 'B', and 'V'.... so they not only don't make the difference, but they don't know it at all. I was astonished when I learned that....
'LL' used to be a different sound than 'Y' as well, till it again, dissapeared in favour of the 'Y' sound. Nowadays, both of them are pronounced like a devoiced English 'J'. In some areas of Spain, though, they still make the difference and pronounce 'LL' as the original sound, a bit like in the English word "million", even in starting position, like "lluvia - rain".
As for "gua" sounds. The correct pronountiation is the one you wrote from the Spanish learning programs. But here again, by speaking faster or out of laziness, we normally don't articulate properly and pronounce it like whua.... The irony of this, is that when we speak English, we then go back to our 'gua' sound when it comes to pronounce the English "w"!!! so that we pronounce where like guere (the 'u' pronounced as well).
« BUT, for some reason people just tend to ignore this difference »
They don't 'ignore' anything as such. That is simply the way they natively speak — there is nothing 'wrong' about that.
So, is my accent (as described by the pronounciation I used above) typical of the north, ie., Sonora, Chihuahua, where my family is from?
Hi Benjamin,
When I said that people ignore the difference I included myself. I am Mexican. I would insist that we DO ignore the difference (perhaps ignore was not the proper word here, I meant when you know you have to do something in a certain way, but you just go ahead without taking care of it. This is other significance of the word 'ignorar' in Spanish. But now I am not sure if in English it has both meanings as well), because in spoken Spanish there are not many chances of misunderstandings if you don't respect the pronountiation, as it would be the case in English. I was not implying that this is wrong.
It means the same thing Sergio, but ignoring something can often be construed as wrong. Benjamin is just saying that native speakers can't be wrong - because they have learned the langauge from birth and speak it natively, as they hear it spoken to them. If they are taught the difference, yet will not use it, they are ignoring it. However, since you do not mean wrong, jut how it is done natively, I see no problem.
<<My family pronounces most 'b's, as 'v's, while we never pronounce a 'v' like a 'b'. However, I hear many people who often pronounce the 'v' in "vive" as a 'b'.>>
<<Is this proper? Or is this just a regional accent that some have?>>
This is called betacism and you can find it in other romance languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacism
That's really interesting Gringo. I had never heard there was an actual term for it before.
Yes, I essentially agree with what Tiffany said.
« I meant when you know you have to do something in a certain way, but you just go ahead without taking care of it. »
Why do you feel that you are supposed to pronounce in a way which is different from how you learnt to speak it natively? No-one has the power to dictate how 'Spanish' ought to be pronounced.
It's like in English. When you learnt English, you probably learnt a certain set of subject pronouns, object pronouns, possessive pronouns, possessive adjectives and verb conjugations. However, all sorts of different variations of these can be found of these throughout the British Isles — there isn't any one 'correct' version.
Hi Benjamin,
Well put in such a relaxed context, yes. Languages are always changing, and I accept that. I was answering the question of LAA from the perspective of the rules. But at the end of the day, I am quite flexible in this whole matter as well. :-)
Even so, sorry for the misspellings and bad orthography when I write in English!!!
Your English is pretty good from what I've read of your messages Sergio. Non preoccuparti!
If this was not an optimistic encouragement but an honest judgement from an English speaker...... you have made me happy today!!!!... :-)
Grazie Tiffany
It was definitely honest :) I won't lie and say your English is perfect. But I've had no trouble communicating or understanding you, and this is not "conversational English" we are speaking. You are definitely at an advanced level. Bravo!
I second that! I would say you are about 95% perfect, along with a hefty vocabulary.
Really those subtle differences are practically irrelevant, I'd say for the 99.99% of Spanish speakers, at least in L.A. I don't know in Spain. In fact I found quit curious when Sergio commented that in Mexico those differences, found in other languages, are tought to children at school but later everybody forget and don't apply them. In other words LAA there is no obligation to use one or other way to pronounce those words although the most used, not to say the only one, that I've heard in people of many nationalities is the sound of 'b' for the letter 'v' too.