im just curious to what people think?
is there a north/south linguistic divide in england?
Definitely. The South pronouces TRAP and BATH lexical sets as [{] and [A:] respectively, whereas the North has a for both. Also, where the South has [@] in the sets COMMA and LETTER, the North usually has a. Those are the two biggest differences I can think of. There's also the FOOT-STRUT split. In the South, these are [U] and [V], but for many Northern speakers, they are both [U]
I'm from the north of England and I can tell you that there is a linguistic divide. I have /a/ for both "trap" and "bath", unlike southern England.
Very much so - a Great Divide twixt North and South exists in England in many ways, apart from accent and dialect. An imaginary line stretches right across England somewhere in the region of Shropshire to Warwickshire to Leicestershire then on to Northamptonshire and then across to The Wash. North of this is the North and South of this is The South. Birmingham is stuck in the middle of it all I think, but there again - I'm only a Scotsman, what the (BLEEP) do I know......
I'll enlarge on this in more detail some time soon ....perhaps...if I feel like it.
I'll enlarge on this in more detail some time soon ....perhaps...if I feel like it.
I would the border between Northern England and Southern England runs from The Wash in the east to the Bristol Channel in the west.
There's no real North/South linguistic divide as divide accents are spoken all over the North and all over the South except that most Southern accents elongate their vowels (pronouncing "bath" as "bahth", for example) whereas most Southern accents have short vowels.
People in the South are usually stuck-up snobs who are ignorant of the North. They live in posh houses, own several expensive cars and prefer drinking wine and champagne to ale.
The Northerners are usually poor paupers, who live in grim towns and cities in Victorian terraced houses and who can only afford one rusting car. But Northerners are much tougher and hardier than their soft Southen counterparts and we drink proper beer (none of that puny wine).
There's no real North/South linguistic divide as divide accents are spoken all over the North and all over the South except that most Southern accents elongate their vowels (pronouncing "bath" as "bahth", for example) whereas most Southern accents have short vowels.
People in the South are usually stuck-up snobs who are ignorant of the North. They live in posh houses, own several expensive cars and prefer drinking wine and champagne to ale.
The Northerners are usually poor paupers, who live in grim towns and cities in Victorian terraced houses and who can only afford one rusting car. But Northerners are much tougher and hardier than their soft Southen counterparts and we drink proper beer (none of that puny wine).
It should say:
There's no real North/South linguistic divide as different accents are spoken all over the North and all over the South except that most Southern accents elongate their vowels (pronouncing "bath" as "bahth", for example) whereas most Northern accents have short vowels.
There's no real North/South linguistic divide as different accents are spoken all over the North and all over the South except that most Southern accents elongate their vowels (pronouncing "bath" as "bahth", for example) whereas most Northern accents have short vowels.
There is, naturally, a great divide. This would be Hadrian's Wall, so lovingly and accurately depicted by that famous Welshman MEL GIBSON in his historic movie THE NORTH/SOUTH DIVIDE OF ENGLAND: A LINGUISTIC VIEW OF BRITAIN AND SCOTLAND
<<The South pronouces TRAP and BATH lexical sets as [{] and [A:]>>
There's also a third "a" sound in Southern England. For example, in the North of England words such as "mad" and "bag" have the same "a" sound as "trap", but in the South they are stretched almost like they are being pronounced twice- you're ma,ad, where's my ba,ag?
There's also a third "a" sound in Southern England. For example, in the North of England words such as "mad" and "bag" have the same "a" sound as "trap", but in the South they are stretched almost like they are being pronounced twice- you're ma,ad, where's my ba,ag?
<<There's also a third "a" sound in Southern England.>>
That's true; I've read that some (many? most?) Southern English and Australian people have the bad-lad split, in which /æ/ splits into /æ/ and /æː/.
So these people would have three phonemes in place of Northern English /a/:
"bad" [ˈbæːd]
"lad" [ˈlæd]
"bath" [ˈbɑːθ]/[ˈbɐːθ]
That's true; I've read that some (many? most?) Southern English and Australian people have the bad-lad split, in which /æ/ splits into /æ/ and /æː/.
So these people would have three phonemes in place of Northern English /a/:
"bad" [ˈbæːd]
"lad" [ˈlæd]
"bath" [ˈbɑːθ]/[ˈbɐːθ]
***The Northerners are usually poor paupers, who live in grim towns and cities in Victorian terraced houses and who can only afford one rusting car. But Northerners are much tougher and hardier than their soft Southen counterparts and we drink proper beer (none of that puny wine)***
Adam has obviously just finished reading J B Priestley's "An English Journey" - written in 1934. His description of the North and Northerners is straight out of that book. I spent 3 years at uni in Leeds (2000 to 2003 AD) where I was under the distinct impression that I was in the North of England (at least that's what the locals and my Philip's £19.99 Navigator OS ultra large 1km to 1cm road atlas of Britain told me. Priestley no doubt saw "poor paupers and rusting cars" in the 1934 Depression version of the North but I certainly didn't in the 21st century version.
The Welfare State - Social security across the board and free National Health Service healthcare for all and sundry didn't exist in the UK in the 1930s but it sure as hell exists now - so Adam's "poor paupers" are a figment of his outdated romantic imagination. And how come all those Victorian terraced houses all have double glazing and central heating, DVD's, HD plasma screens and computer playstations in every kid's bedroom? Sure they quaff ale "oop North", Adam - and judging by the crates of wine I saw being loaded into the backs of SUVs outside all the off licenses and supermarkets in and around Leeds ....they're pretty partial to the old vino as well. Cheers!
Adam has obviously just finished reading J B Priestley's "An English Journey" - written in 1934. His description of the North and Northerners is straight out of that book. I spent 3 years at uni in Leeds (2000 to 2003 AD) where I was under the distinct impression that I was in the North of England (at least that's what the locals and my Philip's £19.99 Navigator OS ultra large 1km to 1cm road atlas of Britain told me. Priestley no doubt saw "poor paupers and rusting cars" in the 1934 Depression version of the North but I certainly didn't in the 21st century version.
The Welfare State - Social security across the board and free National Health Service healthcare for all and sundry didn't exist in the UK in the 1930s but it sure as hell exists now - so Adam's "poor paupers" are a figment of his outdated romantic imagination. And how come all those Victorian terraced houses all have double glazing and central heating, DVD's, HD plasma screens and computer playstations in every kid's bedroom? Sure they quaff ale "oop North", Adam - and judging by the crates of wine I saw being loaded into the backs of SUVs outside all the off licenses and supermarkets in and around Leeds ....they're pretty partial to the old vino as well. Cheers!
<<There's also a third "a" sound in Southern England.>>
In addition to the bad-lad split in the South, I've read that in the West Country, the trap-bath split only lengthened [a] in the BATH set, so they have trap [tr\ap], bath [ba:T] and palm [pA:m]. Some Jamaicans also have [a:] for BATH, but I don't think they have a separate PALM vowel.
In addition to the bad-lad split in the South, I've read that in the West Country, the trap-bath split only lengthened [a] in the BATH set, so they have trap [tr\ap], bath [ba:T] and palm [pA:m]. Some Jamaicans also have [a:] for BATH, but I don't think they have a separate PALM vowel.
<<There's also a third "a" sound in Southern England.>>
In addition to the bad-lad split in the South, I've read that in the West Country, the trap-bath split only lengthened [a] in the BATH set, so they have trap [tr\ap], bath [ba:T] and palm [pA:m]. Some Jamaicans also have [a:] for BATH, but I don't think they have a separate PALM vowel.I
That's certainly how the west country accent has always sounded to my ears. I hadn't realised that that particular feature had been documented (other than by myself).
In addition to the bad-lad split in the South, I've read that in the West Country, the trap-bath split only lengthened [a] in the BATH set, so they have trap [tr\ap], bath [ba:T] and palm [pA:m]. Some Jamaicans also have [a:] for BATH, but I don't think they have a separate PALM vowel.I
That's certainly how the west country accent has always sounded to my ears. I hadn't realised that that particular feature had been documented (other than by myself).
<<Some Jamaicans also have [a:] for BATH, but I don't think they have a separate PALM vowel.>>
Yeah. I have [a:] for both BATH and PALM. It's interesting that there are some people that have separate vowels for all three of TRAP, BATH and PALM as until now I had never heard of such dialects.
Yeah. I have [a:] for both BATH and PALM. It's interesting that there are some people that have separate vowels for all three of TRAP, BATH and PALM as until now I had never heard of such dialects.
A lot of northerners have [a] in words like 'letter' and 'comma'. Doug Pebb, what do you have in these words?