Windy-Wendy merger?

zzz   Thu Mar 01, 2007 4:09 pm GMT
Does anyone else pronounce words like "windy" and "Wendy" the same [wIndi], and "when" and "win" [wIn], but still retain a clear distinction between words like "pin" [pIn] and "pen" [pEn]?
Mxsmanic   Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:50 pm GMT
The windy-Wendy merger is substandard.
Lazar   Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:01 pm GMT
That's interesting. I've never heard of this specific phenomenon before, but it doesn't surprise me that some speakers would have a partial or transitional form of the "pen-pin" merger (in this case, of course, not even including the words "pen" and "pin" themselves). So does the merger only occur after [w] in your speech?

(Btw, I don't have the pen-pin merger at all.)
Skippy   Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:16 am GMT
That may just be a fluke w/ you. I've never heard of it and I can't think of any dialect off the top of my head that allows one but not the other. My former phonology professor may have something to say about it, but I don't like him, so I'm not gonna ask unless there's something in it for me.
zzz   Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:18 pm GMT
>> That may just be a fluke w/ you. <<

Well, yeah, it could be. But I've noticed that it affects many native Northwesterners, as well as many who have moved here and lived here for a long time. But there are so many "immigrants" here, that some people never pick it up. It's hardly universal here, but it seems pretty well widespread, and I haven't heard it outside of the Northwest. For example, I haven't heard a single Midwestererner or Californian that has it (unless they are pin-pen merged.) Other possible examples are possibly: "been" [bIn], and "again" [@gIn], in which I've heard people from other places say [bEn] and [@gEn].
Lazar   Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:07 pm GMT
<<Other possible examples are possibly: "been" [bIn], and "again" [@gIn], in which I've heard people from other places say [bEn] and [@gEn].>>

I'm not sure if "been" would be a good example, because [bIn] is the most common pronunciation in the United States (and I've also read that it's quite common in Britain). On the other hand, [@"gIn] would definitely be an example of pen-pin merging.
Joe   Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:28 pm GMT
I from the Northwestern U.S. and I merge "windy" and "Wendy" but not "pin" and "pen".

<<So does the merger only occur after [w] in your speech?>>

Not really consistently. I have /wIn/ and /wIndi/ for "when" and "Wendy", but "went" is /wEnt/.
zzz   Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:30 pm GMT
>>
Not really consistently. I have /wIn/ and /wIndi/ for "when" and "Wendy", but "went" is /wEnt/. <<

Same for me. Also "wend" is [wEnd].
Shatnerian   Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:42 pm GMT
I merge wendy/windy, pen/pin, and a few others. I apparently use the "eh" sound. I have also been told that I pronounce "milk" as "melk", "bag" as "baeg", and "six" as something close to "sex"--which has raised some strange questions. People also find it amusing when I pronounce the word "Cilantro". I say "SELL-ANN-TRO", where as they generally say "SILL-AHN-TRO". Forgive me, but I am new to this, and I haven't completely mastered the IPA/ASCII thing.
RedFox   Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:09 pm GMT
<<Does anyone else pronounce words like "windy" and "Wendy" the same [wIndi], and "when" and "win" [wIn], but still retain a clear distinction between words like "pin" [pIn] and "pen" [pEn]?>>

I pronounce all of "windy" and "Wendy", "when", "win" and "pin", "pen" the same and don't know X-sampa very well. Is [E] the short "e" sound? Is /I/ the short "i" sound? If so, I have [I] in all those words.
Lazar   Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:37 pm GMT
<<I pronounce all of "windy" and "Wendy", "when", "win" and "pin", "pen" the same and don't know X-sampa very well. Is [E] the short "e" sound? Is /I/ the short "i" sound? If so, I have [I] in all those words.>>

Yes, [E] is the "short e" sound of General American "bet", and [I] is the "short i" sound of General American "bit". It sounds like you have a complete pen-pin merger. This is extremely common in the South and some other areas, and [I] does tend to be the most common realization of the merged vowel.
zzz   Sun Mar 04, 2007 7:02 pm GMT
>> I pronounce "milk" as "melk", "bag" as "baeg", and "six" as something close to "sex" <<

I also pronounce "milk" as "melk"; "bag" is identical to "beg", and both of them are quite similar to "vague", but not quite.

>> . I've never heard of this specific phenomenon before, but it doesn't surprise me that some speakers would have a partial or transitional form of the "pen-pin" merger <<

Interestingly enough, although most people don't notice when people from other areas say [wEn] for "when", we can make the distinction if we're told we should pronounce it like that. I can hear a clear difference between [wEn] and [wIn], and can produce both just fine. It's not like the cot-caught merger, where people from hear would be like: "what? How is it even possible to say them differently?" We just "know" that "when" is pronounce [wIn], and I just always assumed that they were homophones like "bag" and "beg".
Joe   Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:25 pm GMT
I have an /Il/ to /El/ shift in some words. I have /mElk/ for "milk", /v@nEl@/ for "vanilla" and /pEloU/ for "pillow".
zzz   Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:23 pm GMT
>> I have an /Il/ to /El/ shift in some words. I have /mElk/ for "milk", /v@nEl@/ for "vanilla" and /pEloU/ for "pillow". <<

I do it for melk and vanella but not pillow.
RedFox   Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:42 pm GMT
<<Yes, [E] is the "short e" sound of General American "bet", and [I] is the "short i" sound of General American "bit". It sounds like you have a complete pen-pin merger. This is extremely common in the South and some other areas, and [I] does tend to be the most common realization of the merged vowel.>>

Yep. I'm 64, from the Southern United States and have the pen-pin merger. Where in the U.S. are you from? I assume you must be from some non pen-pin merging area as you don't have it.