Cot/Caught Revisted and All

Shatnerian   Fri May 18, 2007 8:17 pm GMT
This has probably been done before, but since we have been talking a lot about the cot/caught merger lately, I would like to ask the merged people on this form which vowel they use.

I generally say caught and cot as [kOt], but I have heard many people merge the two to [kAt].

I also have a somewhat uncommon pronunciation in the west for "all" words such as all, call, tall, mall, etc. Instead of using [A], I use something very close to [O].
Travis   Fri May 18, 2007 9:03 pm GMT
>>I also have a somewhat uncommon pronunciation in the west for "all" words such as all, call, tall, mall, etc. Instead of using [A], I use something very close to [O].<<

Of course, in the eastern US it is extremely common to have the COUGHT vowel for "all" words.
Shatnerian   Sat May 19, 2007 7:45 am GMT
>>Of course, in the eastern US it is extremely common to have the COUGHT vowel for "all" words. >>

This is very true, Travis. I suppose that's the reason many people out here find it so odd. I don't know if you can exactly draw a line where people start using [A] instead of [O], but I would imagine that it is somewhere west of Illinois and Wisconsin.
AnnieJP   Sat May 19, 2007 9:10 am GMT
I used [A].
Lazar   Sat May 19, 2007 7:11 pm GMT
I'm cot-caught merged but father-bother unmerged (a Massachusetts characteristic), so I preserve two open back vowel phonemes.

In "cot, caught, bother", I use [Q], an open back rounded vowel; and in "father", I use [A], an open near-back unrounded vowel.
AnnieJP   Sat May 19, 2007 9:18 pm GMT
People who use [Q] sound strange to me.

>_>
Jeff   Sat May 19, 2007 10:42 pm GMT
<<People who use [Q] sound strange to me.

>_>>>

Indeed they do. That message you get on the phone "the number you have reached is not [nQt] in service. This is a recording" sounds odd to me.
Travis   Sat May 19, 2007 11:13 pm GMT
>><<People who use [Q] sound strange to me.

>_>>>

Indeed they do. That message you get on the phone "the number you have reached is not [nQt] in service. This is a recording" sounds odd to me.<<

Mind you that very many non-cot-caught-merged North American English dialects actually use [Q] rather than [O] as the COUGHT vowel, though.
Kess   Sun May 20, 2007 2:05 am GMT
''Indeed they do. That message you get on the phone "the number you have reached is not [nQt] in service. This is a recording" sounds odd to me.''

I think telephone companies shouldn't be spreading the Canadian/Californian shift :)

not [nQt] (caught/cot [kQt]) is advanced CA shift, bringing [A] back to British-like [Q])
not [nAt] (caught/cot [kAt) is the traditional low back merged vocal; and the only merged vowel in CCmerged nonshifting areas (as Atlantic Canada or many parts of USWest)
Josh Lalonde   Sun May 20, 2007 11:12 pm GMT
I've been told that my merged vowel is [Q] and I've started transcribing it that way, but I don't think it's fully rounded, because I perceive a fairly significant difference between my /Q/ and RP /Q/ (I think length is probably part of it). The Canadian Shift is supposed to move /Q/ up to [O], but I'm not sure if I have this.
Kendra   Mon May 21, 2007 10:14 pm GMT
''The Canadian Shift is supposed to move /Q/ up to [O]''


Not true.
Canadian Shift is supposed to move /A/ to /Q/.
/A/ is the original merged vowel in Canadian English

(listen to the words DRAWING, PROVINCE here: with /A/ rather than /Q/:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DK8FB7USprM )


See here:
http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Canadian/canphon2.html

''There is evidence that the merger of and had taken place at least as early as the 1850s. Chambers (1993) cites the published memoirs of Susanna Moodie, a British woman who emigrated to southern Ontario. In one passage, she mocks an Ontarian's pronunciation of the word sauce, saying it sounded like "sarce." Given what we know about r-lessness in British English of the time, Chambers reasons that Moodie's spelling of "sarce" indicates that the Ontarian pronounced it as [sAs], with a merged [A] rather than [Q] .''
Josh Lalonde   Mon May 21, 2007 10:35 pm GMT
<<Not true.
Canadian Shift is supposed to move /A/ to /Q/.
/A/ is the original merged vowel in Canadian English>>

That's the first stage: [A] -> [Q]. The second stage (which I haven't actually observed myself) is said to move from [Q] to [O]. I write the phoneme as /Q/ because it comes from historic /A:/, /Q/, and /O:/, and /Q/ is the sort of "middle ground" of the three, while also being closest to phonetic reality.
Kess   Mon May 21, 2007 10:42 pm GMT
''I write the phoneme as /Q/ ''

So, you pronounce father and bother with /Q/...
that's pretty strange
Most CBC newscasters don't have this pronunciation (only some regional newscasters, from Manitoba and Ottawa show this)
Mel   Mon May 21, 2007 10:58 pm GMT
'' In the Ottawa Valley, the accent is heavily influenced by the Irish and Scottish who settled the area (Penner & McConnell, 1980). The accent here is even more close-mouthed than it is elsewhere in Canada. ''


http://www3.telus.net/linguisticsissues/britishcanadianamericanvocabcanadianpron.html


I think this could explain the [Q] preference in Ottawa (Q in Dawn/Don instead of A in Dawn/Don)
Guest   Mon May 21, 2007 11:11 pm GMT
<<In the Ottawa Valley, the accent is heavily influenced by the Irish and Scottish who settled the area (Penner & McConnell, 1980). The accent here is even more close-mouthed than it is elsewhere in Canada.>>

I don't know what "more close-mouthed" is supposed to mean, but the Ottawa Valley accent doesn't include Ottawa itself. Ottawa natives generally speak standard Canadian English, and Ottawa Valley residents are increasingly doing so as well.