That...

Franco   Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:42 am GMT
Is it correct to say:

That I had a great car!
That it were so!
That you were dead!

Does it sound foolish?
Skippy   Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:56 am GMT
What is the context?

It looks like you should be saying "if only" instead of "that."
M56   Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:24 am GMT
Yes, it means "if only" or "what would it be like if", etc. It's quite formal and literary, IMO.
M56   Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:47 am GMT
The "original" is "would that".
furrykef   Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:22 am GMT
Franco - no, it doesn't sound right. In fact, the analogous "¡Que...!" construction in Spanish sounded odd to me when I first learned it. My understanding is that the Spanish constructions have an underlying verb that's omitted before the "que", but this sort of omission doesn't occur in English.

- Kef
Adolfo   Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:32 am GMT
Which Spanish structure are you referring to, Furrykef? Could you give an example?
M56   Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:03 pm GMT
<Franco - no, it doesn't sound right. In fact, the analogous "¡Que...!" construction in Spanish sounded odd to me when I first learned it. My understanding is that the Spanish constructions have an underlying verb that's omitted before the "que", but this sort of omission doesn't occur in English. >

Are you joking? Of course it occurs. One can either use "would that" or "that. It's conditional.
furrykef   Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:32 pm GMT
<< Which Spanish structure are you referring to, Furrykef? Could you give an example? >>

"¡Que te mejores!" = "Get well soon!" (The implied sentence is "Espero que te mejores" or "Quiero que te mejores")

I guess it isn't the same thing as the sort of sentence Franco was describing, though, because I would translate his sentences using "ojalá" rather than "que", as they're contrary-to-fact and use the past subjunctive instead of the present... you couldn't say "¡Que tuviera buen coche!", could you?

- Kef
furrykef   Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:24 pm GMT
<< Are you joking? Of course it occurs. >>

Although I've heard "Would that...", I have not heard any sentences like Franco's. I also don't think "Would that..." is really an omission... what phrase is being omitted in "Would that I had a new car"?

- Kef
Adolfo   Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:00 pm GMT
Ok, kef. I thought you wanted to translate Franco's sentences following exactly the same pattern, for example : "Que si fuera rico!" which is wrong in Spanish. As you said, the word "ojalá" must be used because it is an imaginary situation. Even more, I can't find an alternative way of expressing the same idea without using ommited elements. Of course you can say: Me gustaría ser rico!, but with "ojalá" you have the most compact form.
M56   Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:24 pm GMT
<I also don't think "Would that..." is really an omission... what phrase is being omitted in "Would that I had a new car"? >

Did anyone say it was an omission?
M56   Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:49 pm GMT
Here's a nice, similar, example:

"I would that thou wert hot or cold."

And some examples of the thread form:

"4. Used to introduce an elliptical exclamation of desire: Oh, that I were rich!"

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/t/t0143500.html

Album: Oh That I Were an Angel. Artist: Christina England Hale
-----

Oh That I Were
Where I Would Be!

Oh that I were where I would be!
Then would I be where I am not;
But where I am there I must be,
And where I would be I can not.

http://www.mamalisa.com/house/ohthati.html

-----

Oh That I Were As In Months Past!

John Newton, 1779, from Olney Hymns, vol. 1, hymn 43

------

Oh that I were at the head of twenty thousand men marching to that air-

http://www.hoganstand.com/general/identity/extras/patriots/stories/emmetdevlin.htm

......

That I were perfect!

No tears would flow from my children's eyes.
That I were perfect...
Death would not sting my heart.
That I were perfect...
I would never need to apologize.
That I were perfect...
My children would never utter: they hate me!
That I were perfect...
A smile and laughter would always grace my presence.
That I were perfect...
I'd have no reason to guard my heart.

http://bwmmag.com/magazine/content/view/716/185/

----
For whereas before I lay continually trembling at the mouth of hell, now methought I was got so far therefrom, that I could not, when I looked back, scarce discern it! And oh! thought I, that I were fourscore years old now, that I might die quickly, that my soul might be gone to rest.

http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/relg/christiantheology/GraceAboundingtoChiefofSinners/chap3.html
-----


NB Use it sparingly. ;-)
furrykef   Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:26 pm GMT
<< Did anyone say it was an omission? >>

Well, I said that "this sort of omission does not occur in English", and you said "Of course it occurs".
M56   Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:20 pm GMT
<Well, I said that "this sort of omission does not occur in English", and you said "Of course it occurs". >

Back to square one. Are you saying that it is impossible, in English, to omit "would" from "would that..."?
furrykef   Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:31 pm GMT
The omission I was talking about was the omission of an implicit subject and verb. For instance, "que te mejores" literally means "that you get well", the implication being "I hope that you get well" or "I want that you get well" (although we prefer to phrase it "I want you to get well" in English). The omission in question was of "I want" or "I hope", which isn't what's happening in the English sentences.

<< Are you saying that it is impossible, in English, to omit "would" from "would that..."? >>

I never hear it that way. If you hear it that way, I'm not going to argue...

- Kef