<I wouldn't say Indians are native speakers of English! >
The point is, the opposite, "Indians are not native speakers of English", is also not true.
The point is, the opposite, "Indians are not native speakers of English", is also not true.
Indian English = Standard English?
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Let's not forget that Indian English is the second largest variety of English.
"Indian English, the largest second language variety of English, is undergoing a process of structural nativization that leads to the variety developing a semi-autonomous norm-developing potential."
http://hrza1.hrz.uni-giessen.de/forschungsbericht/layout/einzel95.cfm?FB=05&Institut=2100&lfd_Nr=90p
If not a yet a Standard, it is at least standardising, i.e. on its way to becoming a Standard.
Read more here:
"Considering standard Indian English as a variant of standard International English, we may,
provisionally, identify nine lexical strands specific to Indian English, which we shall now describe in turn: a) pan-Indian terms, or words from Indian languages absorbed into Indian English as lexical items and understood throughout India - e.g. lakh; crore; dhoti; dhobi; mali; b) Indian "localisms", pertaining to a specific language or cultural area, e.g. to take two south Indian culinary items: idli; dosa; c)...
http://seikilos.com.ar/IndianEnglish.pdf
"I have always maintained that ‘Standard Indian English’ will (or should?) differ from Standard British English only in its lexicon, not syntax. A well-educated Indian speaker of English will not hesitate to use either creamy layer or Lakshman rehka. But he will be red in the face if, inadvertently, he should say: ‘He speaks good English, isn’t it?’ "
http://deccanherald.com/Content/Aug92007/dheducation2007080817908.asp
But then:
OVEs are regarded as ‘proper English’, and any local variety is
simply not good enough. An example of this way of
thinking can be seen in the case of India; although
Indian English is a recognised nativised variety of
English (NVE), many Indian speakers of English
aspire towards Received Pronunciation (RP), rather
than treating Indian English as a valid model in its
own right (see section 3.3).
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FLTA%2FLTA38_01 2FS026144480500251Xa.pdf&code=e8748dd1b1f8f17f4786ecfec8f757c2
"Indian English, the largest second language variety of English, is undergoing a process of structural nativization that leads to the variety developing a semi-autonomous norm-developing potential."
http://hrza1.hrz.uni-giessen.de/forschungsbericht/layout/einzel95.cfm?FB=05&Institut=2100&lfd_Nr=90p
If not a yet a Standard, it is at least standardising, i.e. on its way to becoming a Standard.
Read more here:
"Considering standard Indian English as a variant of standard International English, we may,
provisionally, identify nine lexical strands specific to Indian English, which we shall now describe in turn: a) pan-Indian terms, or words from Indian languages absorbed into Indian English as lexical items and understood throughout India - e.g. lakh; crore; dhoti; dhobi; mali; b) Indian "localisms", pertaining to a specific language or cultural area, e.g. to take two south Indian culinary items: idli; dosa; c)...
http://seikilos.com.ar/IndianEnglish.pdf
"I have always maintained that ‘Standard Indian English’ will (or should?) differ from Standard British English only in its lexicon, not syntax. A well-educated Indian speaker of English will not hesitate to use either creamy layer or Lakshman rehka. But he will be red in the face if, inadvertently, he should say: ‘He speaks good English, isn’t it?’ "
http://deccanherald.com/Content/Aug92007/dheducation2007080817908.asp
But then:
OVEs are regarded as ‘proper English’, and any local variety is
simply not good enough. An example of this way of
thinking can be seen in the case of India; although
Indian English is a recognised nativised variety of
English (NVE), many Indian speakers of English
aspire towards Received Pronunciation (RP), rather
than treating Indian English as a valid model in its
own right (see section 3.3).
http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FLTA%2FLTA38_01 2FS026144480500251Xa.pdf&code=e8748dd1b1f8f17f4786ecfec8f757c2
More Standards:
ScStE - Scottish Standard English
StAusCE - Standard Australian Colloquial
StAusFE - Standard Australian Formal English
StGhE - Standard Ghanaian English
StIndE - Standard Indian English
StJamE - Standard Jamaican English
Anyone know anything about the differences between StAusCE and StAusFE?
ScStE - Scottish Standard English
StAusCE - Standard Australian Colloquial
StAusFE - Standard Australian Formal English
StGhE - Standard Ghanaian English
StIndE - Standard Indian English
StJamE - Standard Jamaican English
Anyone know anything about the differences between StAusCE and StAusFE?
>>I highly doubt that there is a Standard Australian Colloquial.<<
The only high-level English dialect group which truly has a distinct formal standard and a distinct colloquial *standard* seems to be North American English, I would have to say.
The only high-level English dialect group which truly has a distinct formal standard and a distinct colloquial *standard* seems to be North American English, I would have to say.
<It essentially isn't used outside of India, therefore it's not an international language. >
Every day in the business world, actually.
<The number of native English speakers in India is very small, probably only a few thousand. >
Not sure what that has to do with there being a Standard,
Every day in the business world, actually.
<The number of native English speakers in India is very small, probably only a few thousand. >
Not sure what that has to do with there being a Standard,
<<< Indian English isn't really what the rest of the world considers "Standard English" insofar as there is such a thing. >>>
<< Really? Where did you get that information from? >> [M56]
<< Kef, does a Standard English have to be internationally useful? >> [Divvy]
Are we going to get dragged into a terminology issue again? There are many people who haven't even heard of Indian English. When such people talk about "Standard English", they're not going to have Indian English in mind. A typical employer in the US or Britain who wants to hire somebody who speaks "Standard English" will not accept Indian English. In fact, they're much less likely to accept it than very nonstandard US or British English.
I'm not saying that there's no such thing as Indian Standard English or anything, it's just not what I have in mind when I say "Standard English" in most contexts, and I bet the same goes for most other people outside India as well.
- Kef
<< Really? Where did you get that information from? >> [M56]
<< Kef, does a Standard English have to be internationally useful? >> [Divvy]
Are we going to get dragged into a terminology issue again? There are many people who haven't even heard of Indian English. When such people talk about "Standard English", they're not going to have Indian English in mind. A typical employer in the US or Britain who wants to hire somebody who speaks "Standard English" will not accept Indian English. In fact, they're much less likely to accept it than very nonstandard US or British English.
I'm not saying that there's no such thing as Indian Standard English or anything, it's just not what I have in mind when I say "Standard English" in most contexts, and I bet the same goes for most other people outside India as well.
- Kef
I've read someplace that at least 2 millions of Indians use English as their 1st language (most of them live in Bombay)...
<I'm not saying that there's no such thing as Indian Standard English or anything, it's just not what I have in mind when I say "Standard English" in most contexts, and I bet the same goes for most other people outside India as well. >
Time will tell. Some folks want to believe there is no such thing as Standard Australian English, so what hope does Standard Indian English have? Small minds stay in their own world blissfully content, right?
Time will tell. Some folks want to believe there is no such thing as Standard Australian English, so what hope does Standard Indian English have? Small minds stay in their own world blissfully content, right?
<I've read someplace that at least 2 millions of Indians use English as their 1st language (most of them live in Bombay)... >
As a first language, maybe, but this is more important:
"David Crystal: India currently has a special place in the English language record books, as the country with the largest English-speaking population in the world. Ten years ago that record was held by the United States, but not any more."
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1298284.htm
As a first language, maybe, but this is more important:
"David Crystal: India currently has a special place in the English language record books, as the country with the largest English-speaking population in the world. Ten years ago that record was held by the United States, but not any more."
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/stories/s1298284.htm
Sorry, missed this bit out:
"In 1997 an India Today survey suggested that about a third of the population had the ability to carry on a conversation in English. This was an amazing increase over the estimates of the 1980s, when only about four per cent or five per cent of the population were thought to use the language. And given the steady increase in English learning since 1997 in schools and among the upwardly mobile, we must be talking today about at least 350 million."
"In 1997 an India Today survey suggested that about a third of the population had the ability to carry on a conversation in English. This was an amazing increase over the estimates of the 1980s, when only about four per cent or five per cent of the population were thought to use the language. And given the steady increase in English learning since 1997 in schools and among the upwardly mobile, we must be talking today about at least 350 million."
<Indian English is a language that has no mother-tongue speakers. >
Is Indian English a language or is it a variant of a language?
Is Indian English a language or is it a variant of a language?
<Indian English is a language that has no mother-tongue speakers.>
Depends on what you mean by mother tongue. By most standards, yes, there are mother tongue speakers and they number in the millions not "a few thousands" as someone said above. But even by the most stringent standards, "Indians" include Anglo-Indian families that speak English by heritage. And they alone number in the hundreds of thousands.
Depends on what you mean by mother tongue. By most standards, yes, there are mother tongue speakers and they number in the millions not "a few thousands" as someone said above. But even by the most stringent standards, "Indians" include Anglo-Indian families that speak English by heritage. And they alone number in the hundreds of thousands.
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