Is English grammar harder than Dutch

>>Macedonian has got a very complicated verbal system, one of the most complex amongst slavonic languages, furtherthemore, it possesses three genders: masculine, feminine and neuter. So I don't think that it may be compared to English <<

Heh - just for the sake of comparison, it should be noted that English probably has *the* most complex verbal system out of all the Germanic languages, even though its verbal inflection is relatively modest by Germanic standards (on par with the continental North Germanic languages, less than that of High German and Low German languages other than Afrikaans, and greater than that of Afrikaans).

Dutch is harder.

German is blessed with logic in its grammar, Dutch isn't.

English spelling is more difficult than it's grammar, Dutch spelling is quite constant.

Nevertheless the main difficulty is its pronounciation. Nearly impossible.

German is blessed with logic in its grammar, Dutch isn't.


If German plurals are logic I'm Santa Claus

German plurals are easy. OnlyGerman think they're hard.

Then again, Germans are arrogant

I don't think there's much doubt that basic German grammar is much more complex than English. Dutch grammar is too, but it must be nearer to English than German. However I have heard that some Dutch people think their language is one of the hardest. Even German cannot be anywhere near that title, so the Dutch are deluding themselves in this respect.

>>I don't think there's much doubt that basic German grammar is much more complex than English. Dutch grammar is too, but it must be nearer to English than German. However I have heard that some Dutch people think their language is one of the hardest. Even German cannot be anywhere near that title, so the Dutch are deluding themselves in this respect.<<

German *morphology* is more complex than that of Dutch and English, but from everything I have seen, its overall syntax and usage is simpler than that of both Dutch and English. For instance, to use my favorite example of this, while German verb morphology is more complex than that of English, much of that only really has to be memorized once, and its actual verb usage is much simpler than that of English which is quite complex with respect to verb tense and aspect and how such are expressed syntactically.

Dutch scares me, but not because of the grammar. It seems like a language of shibboleths. How many times have I heard or read that such and such a word cannot be pronounced by anyone but a Dutch person?

I talked to a Dutch person recently and he answered me in German.

<<I talked to a Dutch person recently and he answered me in German.>>

You spoke to him in Dutch and he answered back in German?

probably because you're a German ...

Yes, I spoke to him in Dutch, and he answered in German. I'm American, so I was a little surprised. Of course, perhaps he didn't think any American would speak any Dutch and assumed I was German.

Anyway, I wonder if the shibboleths are the REAL difficulty, not the grammar.

Off topic:

I heard a Dutch person speak at length in good German. It was very interesting. He was clear, yet somehow the flow of the German sounded more like English. I wonder if that is typical.

K.T. how many languages do you speak?

>>I heard a Dutch person speak at length in good German. It was very interesting. He was clear, yet somehow the flow of the German sounded more like English. I wonder if that is typical.<<

A key difference between Dutch on one hand and English and German on the other is that Dutch lacks aspiration, which both English and German have. Likewise, English and German have similar diphthongs, [aI], [aU], and [OI] in English being similar to [ae], [ao], and [OY] in German, which differ significantly from their Dutch counteparts [Ei], [9y] and [Vu].

>>Likewise, English and German have similar diphthongs, [aI], [aU], and [OI] in English being similar to [ae], [ao], and [OY] in German, which differ significantly from their Dutch counteparts [Ei], [9y] and [Vu].<<

should be:

>>Likewise, English and German have similar diphthongs, [aI], [aU], and [OI] in English being similar to [ae], [ao], and [OY] in German, which differ significantly from their Dutch counteparts [Ei], [9y] and [Vu], and [o:i] and [9y] (corresponding to many cases of German [OY]).<<

"He was clear, yet somehow the flow of the German sounded more like English. I wonder if that is typical."

— Yes, typical it is. All educated Dutch are supposed to learn English very early at school. Mandatory. Then, as a consequence, when they take other languages, they have a marked tendency to retain the "foreign" (i.e. American-English) accent they have been drilled to. Even for a language very close to theirs like German.

That's the reason why a French can tell at once a Dutchman from a Flemish. The bloke from Holland, even he's virtually fluent in French, uses a more or less Americanised intonation. On the other hand all Belgian Dutch speakers undergo some exposure to Brussels French, the archetypal 'Belgian' accent, and are immediately identified as Flems.

That being said, the Dutch enjoy an amazing ability to speak foreign languages absolutely accent free. I've known a number of Dutch who came to France to make a career — within a couple of months they could speak like a native Parisian. I've met others in Germany: no one could speak Munich, Hamburger or Berliner etc. slang like they did.

"That's the reason why a French can tell at once a Dutchman from a Flemish. The bloke from Holland, even he's virtually fluent in French, uses a more or less Americanised intonation. On the other hand all Belgian Dutch speakers undergo some exposure to Brussels French, the archetypal 'Belgian' accent, and are immediately identified as Flems."

That's very interesting and makes perfect sense. TY for commenting and welcome back!

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Travis,

Even though linguists always seem to point to Frisian or just Dutch as the language closest to English, I find the sounds of German to be easier (perhaps for the reasons you suggest?)...

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Guest,

How many languages do YOU speak? You know that is a loaded and unanswerable question, lol. I usually claim to be able to get out of trouble in five, but like most people here (probably), I can understand some other languages that I don't "claim"...

I don't actually "claim" Dutch. Farber has that funny system of marriage, dating, etc. Well, I just came to the party with Dutch, lol.