thou revival

Guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:33 am GMT
Why does it need one?
Guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:36 am GMT
There is too much insolence.
guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:42 pm GMT
<<does tha' know where Leeds is? Instead of dost thou know?>>

As Travis alluded to, forms with -s are more original in English for 'thou' then -[e]st, which is just the -s form followed by "thou" ("has thou?" > "hastou" > "hasT thou").

I also wouldn't mind reviving "thou". We don't need to create new pronouns (y'ins, y'all, etc) when we already have good longstanding ones analogous to English itself and with other languages.

However, the conjugated ending for 'thou' in modern English needs to be '-st', not '-Est', unless an 'e' is needed. Compare third singlular -s, not -Es (unless needed by pronunciation ["he chooses"] or by spelling ["he comes" --'e' is mute]. We don't need to create superfuous syllables when using thou (i.e. "thou thinkst" instead of "thou thinkEst"; "he thinks", not he "thinkEs".)

An we DO need a number distinction more than a formality distinction. Just consider what it would be like using the word "us" for historical "I".
"Us are" = "I am"; and "Us are" = "We are",,,to me, that what using "You" is like.
guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:57 pm GMT
Also, is use of thou/thee still found amoung the Friends/Quaker groups of NA?
Travis   Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:15 pm GMT
>>As Travis alluded to, forms with -s are more original in English for 'thou' then -[e]st, which is just the -s form followed by "thou" ("has thou?" > "hastou" > "hasT thou").<<

Technically that is true, but that is going back into the *early* Old English period, and thus is of little relevance to this conversation.

As for "thou", he matter is that "thou" is already considered to be archaic in most of English today, having been thoroughly supplanted by "you" in the singular outside of Northumbrian and certain religious communities. Good luck in getting dialects which have already practically lost "thou" to reinstate it. Also, even if you manage to bring it back, I doubt you will be able to bring back southern Early New English verb conjugation (which is effectively what you are proposing here) - even the English dialects which do preserve "thou" today do not use such verb conjugation.

The other matter is that I doubt you will have much success in "turning back the clock" in English dialects which have already created new second person plural pronouns. For starters, in such dialects "you" is thought of as being *solely* singular in nature, so I doubt you will have much luck in convincing people that "you" should really be solely plural and "thou" should be singular instead. Similarly, I doubt you will have a whole lot of success in convincing people to stop less basilectal second person plural pronouns such as "you guys", which really is just thought of as normal everyday usage in dialects with it, or even "y'all", which has really gained a lot of acceptance in recent decades in areas where it is used.
Lazar   Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:16 pm GMT
<<As Travis alluded to, forms with -s are more original in English for 'thou' then -[e]st, which is just the -s form followed by "thou" ("has thou?" > "hastou" > "hasT thou").>>

Is that really true? The -(e)st ending is found in German as well. I thought it was an old Indo-European thing, related to the Latin perfect ending -sti.
Travis   Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:30 pm GMT
>>Is that really true? The -(e)st ending is found in German as well. I thought it was an old Indo-European thing, related to the Latin perfect ending -sti.<<

Yes it is. The original second person singular indicative ending in Proto-Germanic was -s. The -st endings which appeared in West Germanic languages in the second person singular (and for modals and auxiliaries in North Germanic) are due to the historical -s ending often coming into contact with a following /d/ or /T/ from the second person singular pronoun (which would often fall *after* the verb), to the point where a /t/ ended up being permanently attached to the end of the verb in the second person singular present indicative.
guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:32 pm GMT
One other aspect which might aid the return of 'thou' is the fact that although it is archaic, it is still widely, if not universally known. Ask any casual native English speaker on the street what "thou" means, and chances are they'll tell you. Or use it on them (and aside from the initial weird look they may give you), they will understand exactly what you are saying. Many might even use it in reverse (just to be funny, as I've already seen several times in this thread).

The fact is, that although it is old fashioned, the pronoun, as well as its verb conjugation, are so indelibly preserved in English history, culture and writing that it makes a comeback easier than you might think.

And think of the religious communities that still read the KJV Bible. They are exposed to 'thou' and 'ye' continually.

I don;t think it would be difficult at all. Especially if it were taught in school at say grade level English.
Guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:07 pm GMT
I think "Thou" and "Thee" is still used in communites that use the KJV Bible too. At least it was true, say five or six years ago. I also heard it in a pop song in the 90s, I think.

I don't think some people understand that this is actually a familiar form of address (even in the communities that address God this way.)
Travis   Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:03 pm GMT
And do you think that teaching such in schools would do anything? Remember that the everyday spoken language is already quite distinct from the literary language as taught in schools today in North America.
guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:47 pm GMT
Well, teaching it would only be this:

thou is for one person
ye is for more than one

thou takes -st on verbs

that's it. basic grammar lesson. like a familiarization if you will
Travis   Mon Jan 21, 2008 8:56 pm GMT
And why do you expect kids to change how they themselves speak just because of that?
Guest (another)   Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:05 pm GMT
Kids may find it fun.
AJC   Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:06 pm GMT
Arest thou having a laugh?
guest   Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:07 pm GMT
Well, I don't.
That would take something like using 'thou' as a form of address becoming fashionable (like among celebrities). If Paris Hilton started using 'thou' to address Nicole Richie, then we'd have an easy time of it.

To be realistic however, we'd have to reintroduce 'thou' as the reverse of what someone mentioned above (reverse of historic use)--as a *formal* way of addressing the second singular--kinda like a French 'vous' or German 'Sie'. It would then, like all things in English, deteriorate itself from there.