Pronouncing the double C

Pronouncing the double C

According to Daniels Jones Pronouncing Dictionary, ed.16, p.88,
"the consonant digraph <cc> has two pronunciations: /ks/ and /k/. E.g.,
<accident> /ˈæk.sɪ.dənt/
"In most other situations, <cc> is pronounced as /k/,
<acclaim> /ˈəkˈleɪm/
"In addition, the word <flaccid> has two possible pronunciations,
<flaccid> /ˈflæk.sɪd/ , /ˈflæs.ɪd/
"Words borrowed from Italian may have /ʧ/ , e.g.:
<cappuccino> /ˌkæp.ʊˈʧiː.nəʊ/ (US) /-əˈʧiː.noʊ/ "

My observation is:
1. <cc> always occur in the middle of word.
2. the first <c>, is the coda of the first syllable, and the second <c> is the onset of the next syllable.
On comparing the <cc> to Burmese-Myanmar (Burmese speech in Myanmar script) rendered into Romabama (Burmese in extended Latin), I am finding one aspect that I haven't notice in English. The first <c>, i.e., the coda <c> is a stop with the sound "/k/", whereas the onset <c> is a fricative with the sound /s/. This observation has prompted me to conclude that the coda <c> is not actually /k/, but a palatal and should be represented by /c/. This conclusion is just the opposite of what we usually say "there is no palatal <c> in English".
Joe Tun (aka) U Kyaw Tun, 080309
Tun Institute of Learning
www.tuninst.net

<<This conclusion is just the opposite of what we usually say "there is no palatal <c> in English".>>

Sorry, I don't think I understand what you're saying.

I have no idea what you mean. English as a whole has no phoneme /c/, but fronted allophones of /k/ occur in some environments, eg. before front vowels in my dialect. The shared spelling <c> for /s/ and /k/ has nothing to do with their phonemic status; it's largely due to the influence of French on our spelling system.

Dear Lazar and Josh
Of course, you would not understand what I am saying. I would have been in your position too. Cross linguistic comparison, between Burmese and English, has brought out some interesting properties of consonants and vowels. (Please remember that Myanmar in which Burmese is written is a phonetic script comparable to the IPA which makes cross linguistic comparison easy.) Working with the rimes in the syllables of the type CVÇ, has brought out that the pronunciation of C and Ç can be quite different in both Burmese and in English. A specific example is in the <cc> digraphs of the disyllabic words such as <success> /sək'ses/ (transcription from Daniel Jones Pronouncing Dictionary, 16ed. p515). In the <cc> the first <c> belongs the syllable /sək/ whereas the second <c> belongs to the syllable /ses/. This has prompted me to suggest that "there is palatal <c> in English but only in the coda". The rational being: POA's of velar stop /k/ and the palatal stop /c/ are so close that we might have made a mistake in giving the transcription as /sək'ses/. It could very well be /səc'ses/. If we could accept this position, then we can say that the English <c> and the Burmese {sa.} are exactly the same.
Joe Tun (aka) U Kyaw Tun, 080313
Tun Institute of Learning
www.tuninst.net

Again, though, the only place where [c] shows up in English is as an allophone of /k/ before front vowels in some dialects...., which would definitely not apply to the word "success". My own dialect does have *palatal coarticulation" in the /ks/ cluster in "success", as [sɨʔkʲˈsʲɜ̟s], but that is a wholly different matter from having a palatal point of articulation, as in [c].

Dear Travis
The allophones of /k/ is a different matter. In narrow transcription /k/ has two sounds known as allophones. In IPA they are [k] and [kh]. (note: <h> in [kh] is a superscript.) My Burmese name is spelled with [k], but my American friends (I was going to a graduate school in Appleton, Wisconsin in 1957-59) always pronounced it as [kh]. After my fruitless attempts to make them pronounce my name properly, we all decided to give it up, and they and I agreed to Americanize it to "Joe". On becoming a Canadian citizen some thirty years later, I officially adopt <Joe> as my first name, while keeping the Burmese name <Kyaw> as my second name. That is how I became a Canadian with the name <Joe K. Tun>.
Coming back to the allophones of /k/, [k] is realized only after an <s> as in <skin>. In all other cases, /k/ is always pronounced as [kh].
When you say "my own dialect", you are probably relying on your hearing. We all tend to think that our very own hearing and speaking are "perfect". However, when we are dealing with voice recognition systems, that is, dealing with those "stupid" machines, we know better. I now admit that I am "phoneme deaf" (something like color blindness) and I don't rely on my hearing anymore. I use the Daniel Jones' Pronouncing Dictionary and use its transcriptions as my reference, remembering that what it gives are broad transcriptions which usually ignore the allophones.

Is it true that flaccid can be pronounced with a k sound?

I always pronounce 'flaccid' as /fl{kId/ with a 'k' followed by an 's' (=flaxid)

almost sounds like 'flax seed' :)

>>When you say "my own dialect", you are probably relying on your hearing. We all tend to think that our very own hearing and speaking are "perfect".<<

Actually, I generally judge much about how I speak not from how it *sounds* but rather how I articulate it. For instance, I can only barely hear the difference between palatalized and non-palatalized consonants in my dialect, and yet I can easily perceive the difference between the two articulatorily.

I never hear "flaccid" being pronounced with [k] myself. In my own case, "flaccid" is [ˈfx̆ɰɛ̯æsɨːd̥], from /ˈflæsɪd/ (contrast with "flax seed" [ˈfx̆ɰɛ̯ækʲsʲːiːd̥]).

Dear Guest (080325)
and Travis (080326)
I never trust my hearing. And so I use as my standard
Cambridge English Pronouncing Dictionary, by Daniel Jones, edited by Peter Roach, James Hartman & Jane Setter, Cambridge University Press, 16th edition, copyright Cambridge University Press, 2003.
And when I gave the pronunciation of the word <flaccid>, I was quoting an information panel in DJPD16, p.88, on the "Pronouncing the letters CC". And just before I wrote this post, I checked again. The pronunciation of <flaccid> is given on p205.
For those who would like to correspond with me directly:
jtun@sympatico.ca
I will be going to Singapore to do a bit of linguistic research over there especially on the palatal stop and fricatives <th> <s> <sh> in other languages, and there would be none to answer the letters arriving at the above email address.
Joe Tun
www.tuninst.net

I've split the discussion of grade A vs. gray day here: http://www.antimoon.com/forum/t10139.htm