The propa way to spel

Joe   Sunday, April 18, 2004, 16:51 GMT
fissure-fisher
pressure-presher
measure-mezher
loch-lok
caramel-carmal
pajamas/pyjamas-puhjahmuhs
core-cor
friend-frend
heard-hurd
yogh-yoag
Wednesday-wenzday
plumber-plummer
cupboard-cubburd
calf-caf
castle-cassle
quiche-keesh
English-Inglish
Joe   Sunday, April 18, 2004, 16:55 GMT
yeah-yeh
monkey-munky
donkey-donky
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 02:19 GMT
bizarre-bizar
beige-baizh
Jim   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 02:30 GMT
Here are those words from Joe's lists that I couldn't accept.

THE NOT-SO-SILENT "H"

herb-erb

I pronounce it [he:b]
Leave it as "herb".

THE "-OUGHT" WORDS OUGHT TO BE SPELT RIGHT

bought-bot
sought-sot
fought-fot

They don't rhyme with "cot", "got" and "not" for me. Here's a better idea.

ought = [o:t] = aut
bought = [bo:t] = baut
sought = [so:t] = saut
fought = [fo:t] = faut

THE "WH-" WORDS

when-wen
where-werr
what-wut

I don't make the distinction between "w" and "wh" but there are those who do. For everybody "w" is [w] but for some "wh" is something different. For some "wh" is [hw] but respelling it "hw" won't do because for others it is [W] where [W] is a whole different phoneme (like [w] but vioceless).

Also "err" hardly fits [e..(r)] to my mind, "air" or "are" would work but not "err". And the word "what" for me rhymes with "not", "cot" and "got" but not with "nut", "cut" and "gut" so using a "u" won't do.

I could suggest "when", "whair" and "whot" however the job of spelling is more than just giving a phonemic representation of words. These words fit certain patterns that are worth preserving.

now/then/when
here/there/where
this/that/what
hence/thence/whence
herefore/therefore/wherefore

THE "-ALK" WORDS

walk-wahk
talk-tahk

These suggestions don't work for me. I don't pronounce those words as [wa:k] and [ta:k] but [wo:k] and [to:k]. How about these?

walk - wauk
talk - tauk
stalk - stauk
balk - bauk

THE "-ALF" WORDS

half-haf
calf-caf

I pronounce them [ha:f] and [ka:f] not [h@f] and [k@f]. Perhaps we could use "a" for both [a:] and [@] but I don't know what problems this could cause.

THE "O" WORDS

from-frum
of-uv
was-wuz
want-wunt
what-wut

The vowel in these words is [o] not [^] for me so none of these work in my accent. Here's a better way of writing them for me.

from-from
of-ov
was-woz
want-wont
what-whot

However the "a" in "was", "want" and "what" isn't so much of a problem because it fits a pattern whereby the letter "a" reguarly gets pronounced as [o] after "w", "wh" or "qu" (when the orthography also suggests that it be a short vowel).

THE "-EIGH-" WORDS

weigh-wae
weight-wate
eight-ait

Just look at these suggestions. They're all over the place: two very different digraphs and a magic "e". Besides in the word "sundae" I can't think of any instance where "ae" is pronounced as [ei]: this is a very bad choice if you ask me. The digraph "ai", on the other hand is fine. It occurs very often in English. You could try using this digraph for all of them but it's not common to end a word with "i" so how about the related digraph "ay"?

weigh-way
weight-wait
eight-ait

Much nicer, don't you think? However, there already exists words spelt "way" and "wait" so we've got a problem. Also we're making a huge change to the spelling by introducing the letter "a" which wasn't there before. So what else could we do. Well, there is another pair of digraphs commonly found in English, "ei" and "ey". The connexion to the original spelling can be plainly seen. Here's my suggestion.

weigh-wey
weight-weit
eight-eit

THE VELAR FRICATIVE IGNORED

loch-lok
yogh-yoag

Some of us make no distinction between the velar fricatives and the velar stops but there are those who do. For the sake of those who do let's keep them represented by spelling. It's not going to affect many words but if you've got to respell them how about this?

loch - lokh
yogh - yoagh

THE "EARN" WORDS

learn-lern
heard-hurd

Why "hurd" when you've got "lern"? Alternatively, why "lern" when you've got "hurd". Go for a consistant solution.

learn -lern
heard - herd
earn - ern

or

learn - lurn
heard - hurd
earn - urn

UNNECESSARY "E"

diaper-dieper

Why not just "diper" like "wiper" and "piper"?

CAPITALISATION

Wednesday-wenzday

Don't you mean "Wenzday"?

OTHERS

There are other I'll come back too when I get the time but they fall into two catagories.

THESE DON'T FIT MY ACCENT

aunt-ant
antarctica-antartica
graham-gram
mayonaise-mannaze.
sure-shur
because-becuz
toward[s]-tord[s]
clothes-cloes
quarter-korter
yeah-yeh
catch-kech
fortune-forchun
been-bin
February-Febuary
fissure-fisher
caramel-carmal

THESE AREN'T THE BEST SPELLING CHOICES IN MY OPINION

you-u
ewe-yu
yew-yue
mayor-mayer
owe-oe
again-uggen
ma'am-mam
pajamas/pyjamas-puhjahmuhs
school-skool
cupboard-cubburd
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 02:36 GMT
For ''learn'' I was just taking the ''a'' out. But there's already a word spelled ''herd'' so I chose ''hurd'' to keep the distinction between the two words. Also, what's wrong with ''mayer'' like ''player''? Yes, I mean Wenzday.
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 02:42 GMT
not "err", What about the words ''Herr'' and ''err''? What's wrong with ''skool'', it's commonly spelled that way in chatrooms so, what's wrong with it.
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 03:24 GMT
Who doesn't pronounce ''graham'' as ''gram'' and ''mayonaise'' as ''mannaze''? How does ''Febuary'' not fit your accent. ''Feb-you-ary'' is how it's pronounced.
mjd   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 03:41 GMT
Joe,

I pronounce "mayonnaise" with the same "A" sound as in the word "may," not like in the word "man."
Bill   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 03:42 GMT
Some other things about Joe's list.

hall-hal
wall-wal

These look like they should be pronounced [h@l] and [w@l]. ''haul'' and ''waul'' would work better.

genre-zhonre

Why not ''zhonra''?

two-tue

This would work for Americans but to Britons ''tue'' looks like it should be pronounced [tju:]. ''tue'' is not a good spelling to them.

[Our] ignored.

more-mor
door-dor
floor-flor
court-cort
board-bord
roar-ror

These would work for most of us but some Scottish and Irish people distinguish words like ''for'' and ''four, ''horse'' and ''hoarse'', ''war'' and ''wore'' etc. by using [o:r] for the first words and more like [Our] for the second words.

mayonaise-mannaze. Why not ''mannaiz''?
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 03:45 GMT
Is the ''wh'' and the [Our] that important. Most of us don't even make those distinctions. Is it important to keep the spelling distinctions for ''wh'' and [Our]? Well, I guess that's why there's a problem with even having a tinker reform. Not all of us pronounce certain words in the same way.
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 03:47 GMT
I say ''wuz'' Jim says ''woz''.
Jim   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 03:59 GMT
Well that makes sense about the "lern"/"hurd" I thought that might have been what you were doing.

The words "mayor" and "player" don't rhyme for me. In my accent "mare" and "mayor" are homophones.

mayor = [me..]
player = [plei..]

"Herr" is not an English word. The words "err" and "where" don't rhyme for me.

err = [e:]
where = [we..]

"Skool"'s cool but I think "scool"'s better. In traditional orthography it's usually the letter "c" that is used before "o" for the sound [k]. You don't write "kool" for "cool". I therefore think that "scool" fits into the structure of English spelling better than "skool". Also "scool" is closer to the original: just drop the "h". The chatroomers are just being cool but I doubt that they're giving much thought to the idea of spelling reform.

I don't ''Graham'' as ''Gram'', ''mayonnaise'' as ''mannaze'' and ''February'' as ''Feb-you-ary'' . Here's how I pronounce them:

Graham = [grei..m]
mayonnaise = [mei..neiz]
February = [febju:ri(:)]

"Febuary", I could live with but not the other two.
Joe   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 04:14 GMT
Is ''herr'' not an English word. It's in the dictionary. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Herr

you-u
ewe-yu
yew-yue
mayor-mayer
owe-oe
again-uggen
ma'am-mam
pajamas/pyjamas-puhjahmuhs
school-skool
cupboard-cubburd

Did I make some weird choices?
Smith   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 04:18 GMT
Jim's spelling reform makes a distinguishment between ''wh'' and ''w'', ''k'' and ''kh'' and ''g'' and ''gh''. http://pub103.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=37.topic I'm comparing some reform called ''Neytoe Inglish'' to some other spelling reform that I found an example of. The other one seems to work better than Neytoe Inglish.
Jim   Tuesday, April 20, 2004, 05:52 GMT
"Not all of us pronounce certain words in the same way." This is true. Some allowance can be made for different accents but problems will still remain. No satisfactory respelling of words like "schedule", "sure", "lieutenant", "vase", etc. is possible. Not only this but there is a difference in how different English speakers percieve orthography. Joe thinks [ei] when he sees "ae" but I'd be inclined to think [ai] (as in Romanised Japanese and Latin).

JUST LIKE BILL SAYS

two-tue
hall-hal
wall-wal

These won't work for me. They indicate [tSu:] (as in Tuesday = [tSu:zdei]), [h@l] and [w@l].

genre-zhonre

Why not "zhonra"? This vowel is usually written as "a" at the end of a word (this is if we ignor the "er" words but these are only good for nonrhotic accents).

ARE THE DISTINCTIONS IMPORTANT

Sure most of us don't make the "w"/"wh" and "or"/"oar" distinctions but that doesn't make them unimportant if you ask me. For the benifit of those who make them they should be represented in spelling. How would you like it if your accent were ignored by those reforming spelling?

What's more orthographic distinctions do more than just show phonemic distinctions in pronunciation. It's useful to have different spellings for homophones, this way meaning can be more easily conveyed in writing.

I notice you've chosen "hurd" instead of "herd" as a respelling of "heard" because "herd" is already a word. You respell "where" as "werr", what about "ware"? You choose "wae", "wate" and "ait"; this is because, I'm guessing, "way", "wait" and "ate" are already taken. Why go about inventing new distinctions whilst at the same time you're wiping the old ones out?

AMERICAN STATE NAMES

Arkansas-Arkansah
Illinois-Illinoi

Are we extending the reform to proper nouns? People are attached to the spelling names perhaps even more than they are to the spelling of ordinary words. Anyway "Arkansah" won't work for me because I pronounce it [a:k..nso:]. Also why not change the "i" to a "y" as is usual at the end of a word?

Arkansas - Arkansaw
Illinois - Illinoy

WHY THE "I" AND THE "K"

chocolate-choklit

Throw out the second "o", okay, but why does this mean that the "c" should become a "k"? The sound [k] is usually spelt as "c" before a consonant letter. Throw out the "e", okay, but why does this mean that the "a" should become an "i"? The vowel you're trying to represent is [..]. There is no distinct letter for this in our alphabet: any would do. So why not just keep the original "a"?

chocolate - choclat

MY AUNT'S AN ANT

aunt-ant

Sure nobody pronounces it [o:nt] ... do they? But not everybody pronounces it [@nt] I pronounce it [a:nt]

MISSING CONSONANTS

antarctica-antartica
clothes-cloes
quarter-korter

I pronounce these words as the traditional spelling indicates. I pronounce both of the "c"s (as [k]) in "Antartica", why drop one? I pronounce the "th" in "clothes" as [TH], why omit it? I pronounce the [w] indicated by the "qu" in "quarter", "quorter" would be okay but not "korter" nor even "corter" (which would be better than "korter" for the same reson that "scool" is better than "skool"). However, "quorter" would not be necessary. After "qu", "w" and "wh" the "ar" digraph is normally pronounced as [o:(r)] so "quarter" is fine as it is.

ARE YOU SHAW

sure-shur

I say [So:] not [Se:(r)]

TO MAKE A LONG VOWEL SHORT

because-becuz
yeah-yeh
fortune-forchun
been-bin

Here we have Joe respelling what in traditional orthography are long vowels as short vowels. This may work for his accent but I use the long vowels that traditional orthography suggest. As I say [b..ko:s], [je..], [fo:tSu:n] and [bi:n] the original spellings are better for me.

MISSING SYLLABLE

toward[s]-tord[s]
caramel-carmal

I pronounce "towards" (or "toward") as a two syllable word [t..wo:d(z)]. Also I pronounce the second "a" in "caramel" as [..]. I say [k@r..m.l] so the original spelling is better.

NO A FISHER NOT A FISHER

fissure-fisher

Now we have a homograph with a word that means "one who fishes". You could write it "fizher" but that's just my accent.

I DIDN'T KECH THAT ONE

catch-kech

I certainly don't pronounce it [ketS]. Drop the "t", sure, but don't swap the "a" for an "e" (and thus don't swap the "c" for a "k").

catch - cach

YOO YOO YOO

you-u
ewe-yu
yew-yue

It may be common in chatrooms but in English orthography I can't see how "u" alone would lend itself to being pronounced [ju:]. Joe seems to have a thing for the digraph "ue" but he forgets it's cousin "eu". This forgetfulness is common amongst spelling reformers: "ue" is their darling. However it is "eu" and its brother, "ew", which are perhaps more common in English orthography than is "ue". Why throw them out? Here's a better idea.

you - yu
ewe - ew
yew-yew

"E"S NOT NEEDED

owe-oe
eye-ie

Both of these work fine but why not just "o" and "i"?

O NO, NOT "U" AGAIN

again-uggen

Why the need to change the "a" into "u"? It is usual to use the letter "a" for [..] at the begining of a word. There are plenty of examples. Here are a few: "ago", "about", "awake", "America", "accustomed", "acoustic", "aghast". Does Joe want them all changed to "u"? Why would "u" be better than "a": it's [..] not [^]. This is a better idea.

again - agen

CONTRACTING A CONTRACTION

ma'am-mam

"Ma'am" is short for "madam". Do we want that fact lost?

MAKING A MESS OF YOUR PJ's

pajamas/pyjamas-puhjahmuhs

Weren't we trying to simplify spelling?

WHAT'S IN THE CUPBOARD

cupboard-cubburd

I think "cubord" is better. Why use "ur" when it's not [e:(r)]? You don't need a double "b": you don't have a double "z" in wizard.

Have a look here too.

Spelling Reform
http://b16.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessageRange?topicID=1.topic&start=1&stop=20

Simplified Spelling
http://b16.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessageRange?topicID=15.topic&start=1&stop=20

And vote on the spelling reform poll.

Spelling Reform: How Far To Go
http://b16.ezboard.com/feuropa2frm40.showMessage?topicID=10.topic