Spelling Reform Thread

Might Mick   Monday, June 14, 2004, 07:25 GMT
Jim,
So I propose /y/ for this missing vowel as with the representation of the French vowel "u". However in English /y/ is never pronounced purely on its own, it is always diphthongised. i.e. /y:/

Here is how I would write them now:
1) /gud/ for good, /buk/ for book
2) /pu:l/ for pool (/py:l/ is your pronunciation for pool)
3) /py:/ for poo, /fy:d/ for food, /hy:t/ for hoot
Jim   Monday, June 14, 2004, 07:29 GMT
Loch,

My old spelling system is getting messed up. Here's my new proposal: traditional orthography: you can't beat it. Seriously I don't think that my system is any worse than any other proposal based on phonemes. There is simply too much variation in dialects.
Jim   Monday, June 14, 2004, 07:44 GMT
Mighty Mick,

I propose sticking with /u:/ until it's decided that this distinction is phonemic. I don't see that day coming because, as far as I can tell, they are allophones. If you want to talk phonetics, though, I don't think that Antimoon's alphabet is adequate. Your best bet would perhaps be XSAMPA.
Might Mick   Monday, June 14, 2004, 08:15 GMT
Can you sum up the different definitions? I don't really understand the nuances of the terms.

Phonetics - the way an alphabet defines the sounds of a language.
Phoneme - ?
Phone - the smallest identifiable sound element
Allophone - one phone sounding like another

Any others?
Might Mick   Monday, June 14, 2004, 10:02 GMT
Jim,
"I think it's like "code" verses "cold" it's the same vowel phoneme, /Ou/, (in the Aussie accent) but they sound different because of the /l/."

2 different phonemes Jim! I assure you. (for Aussies and certain Brits)

Just say and listen to the 2 different "o" sounds in isolation with no consonants around them. The first one is accute, but the second one is open - foreigners always tend to use it for all long "o" sounds.
Might Mick   Monday, June 14, 2004, 10:39 GMT
Jim,
I listened to some audio extracts on the web... Some Brits in fact pronounce "cold" with the same "o" in our "code"! i.e. /kOy:ld/ for cold, and /kOy:d/ for code - both /Oy:/

However, Americans pronounce them both with the "o" in "cold". i.e. /kOu:ld/ for cold, /kOu:d/ for code

To confirm our pronunciation, we say /kOu:ld/ for cold, /kOy:d/ for code.
Inglish Respeling   Monday, June 14, 2004, 23:49 GMT
Jim, Shouldn't a spelling reform, if one happens, favor how the majority speaks not the minority? Therefore the distinction between ''tenner'' and ''tenor'' made by people from Northern Ireland can be ignored rather than writing ''tener'' for ''tenor'' and ''teoner'' for ''tenner''.

Which is better,

‘’They had a tenor and a tenner.’’


''Dhay had a tener and a tener.''

or

''Dhay had a tener and a teoner.''

I'd say the first.

Also, if the distinction between ''tenner'' and ''tenor'' should be included then what about these. These are distinctions that your system and Loch's system don't include,

'' EA VS. EE Distinction [i..] vs. [I:]
MEAT VS. MEET, ''LEAK'' VS. ''LEEK'', ''REAL'' VS. ''REEL'' AND ''SEA'' VS. ''SEE'' DISTINCTION MADE IN SOME PART OF THE BRITISH ISLES.''

''Some people in some part of the British Isles pronounce ''meat'' differently to ''meet''. They pronounce ''meat'' as [mi..t] and ''meet'' as [mi:t]. Spelling them the same might seem odd to them. Should we spell ''meat'' and ''meet'' differently in a phonemic reform?''

If you distinguished them you'd have to spell ''yeah'' differently. Perhaps as ''yae''.

SOUTHERN ENGLISH DISTINCTION [@] VS. [@:]
For some people from Southern England these words, ‘’bad’’, ‘’sad’’, ‘’jam’’ meaning ‘fruit conserve’, ‘’can’’ ‘’tin’’ or the verb ‘’can’’, and ‘’halve’’ have a longer vowel sound than the vowel sound in cat. For them, ‘’bad’’ and ‘’lad’’ don’t rhyme. Also, they have minimal pairs between ‘’can’’ meaning ‘’able two’’ and ‘’can’’ to put into a can and ‘’jam’’ ‘’fruit conserve’’ and ‘’jam’’ meaning ‘’crush’’ and also ‘’have’’ vs. ‘’halve’’. Should those words be distinguished from others perhaps by using ‘’ao’’.

WELSH DISTINCTION [u:] verses [U]. I’m using [U] for a distinct sound they use.
For some Welsh people, where we have ‘’yod dropping’’ they use a different vowel sound in to distinguish them from other words so, for them rude and rood, rheum - room, threw - through, brewed - brood, chews - choose, chute - shoot, lute - loot, luce - loose, suit – soot, flew – flu, and the vowels of glue - gloom, blue – bloom and the vowel in June are distinguished by them. Should this distinction be included in a spelling reform, perhaps by using ‘’ue’’ for these words and then using ‘’eu’’ for [ju:]

SCOTTISH DISTINCTION = LIBEL VS. BIBLE.

For some Scots, ‘’libel’’ and ‘’bible’’ don’t rhyme. The vowel in ‘’bible’’ is like the [ai] in other words and the vowel in ‘’libel’’ is different, the diphthong changes in ‘’libel’’ for them. Should this distinction be included in a spelling reform, perhaps by using ‘’ii’’ for ‘’libel’’ and then ‘’ie’’ for ‘’bible’’ and the other [ai] words.
Loch   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 01:01 GMT
''I don't reckon I'm any kind of pro but I'll give it a bash. You ask "Can you answer that question posed on 'two particular vowel sounds of O'?" Do you mean a question tha went along these lines. "If you're adding 'oer' for [Or] then how will you spell 'goer' and 'lower'?"''

''Words like "goer" and "lower" are problems I'm still working on. I had had a half decent solution but this was before I considered the /O/ verses /Ou/ distinction and the /o:(r)/ verses /Our/ distinction. Maybe I'll go with "goaer" and "blo-er" but it's not ideal.''

Perhaps there wouldn't be so much of a mess if we just added some more letters to the alphabet. That's one of the problems, ''English'' has more phonemes than letters. Perhaps we should just add some more letters to the alphabet. Any, What do you think about this alphabet with a few letters added to it.

a-father
b-book
c-chart, chip = become ''cart'' and ''cip''
d-dog
e-red
f-food
g-good
h-hook
i-is
j-jet
k-cat
l-lip
m-man
n-no
o-top
p-pool
q-[?]-''glottal stop''- ''Hawai'i'' becomes ''Hywieqi'', as the words pronounced in the Hawai'ian language.
r-real
s-street
t-tiger
u-tub
v-vet
w-wet
x-genre, rouge, beige, vision
y-yes
z-zebra
þ-think
ð-then
æ-cat
ø-arrest, about, soda, permit ''the verb''.
œ-home, goat, goer, float, boat
Ð-tied, kneed, allowed, tried, stayed
ï-lenin, cabin, possible, bizarre, visit, wanted, needed, carpet, manage, private, amplifier, horrible. ''Unstressed [i] or [..]'' See below,
ş-ship, shield, fish, wish, chef, machine.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

The ''Ð'' in ''tied'', ''kneed'' etc. I'm using is the capital of the letter that looks like a lowercase ''t'' and a lowercase ''d'' put together which is different from ''eth''.

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

The letter ''ï'' is used in some words where some people use [..] and some people use the [i] sound in ''kit''. The ''i's'' that are pronounce [..] by most of us are pronounced like the ''i'' sound in ''kit'' by some. So, that ''lennon'' and ''lenin'' and ''bazaar'' and ''bizarre'' are distinguished. Also, for Americans and Britons [i] occurs in past tense ''ed'' endings and plural ''es'' endings and for some people in ''et'', ''age'' and ''ate'' endings. So, in unstressed syllables where either [..] or [i] can be used, the letter ''ï''. ''America'' becomes ''Ømerïkø''. [i] is never used in ''en'' endings so, they become ''øn''.

See - http://www.hi.is/~peturk/KENNSLA/87/VARS/WVMerger.html

Sound sample.



'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''

So, in this alphabet 8 letters are added. ''goer'' becomes ''gϿr''. how is that?

Well, what do you think about this extended alphabet? Well, what do you þink øbout ðis ekstendïd alføbet. Are you ready to get a bigger keyboard? You would probably need a bigger keyboard because we would have to add some keys.
Loch   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 01:06 GMT
Loch   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 02:40 GMT
That'll be ''$'' for ''ship'', ''sheet'', ''shield'' ''chef'' and ''fish''. I can't type that other letter.

Well, what do you þink øbout ðis ekstendïd alføbet. Are you ready to get a bigger keyboard? You would probably need a bigger keyboard because we would have to add some keys.
Loch   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 02:43 GMT
I want this letter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-cedilla for [S] but I can't type it.
Jim   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 03:55 GMT
S'pose you çould just çopy and paste ... if it çomes out ... there's only one way to find out ...
Jim   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 03:57 GMT
Nope, it doesn't work.
Loch   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 04:14 GMT
It doesn't work that way. Anyway, What do you þink øbout ðis ekstendïd alføbet.

I can't type the letter I want for [S] so, I'm using ''$''.

fishhook becomes fi$hook.

Wouldn't the alphabet song be messed up by this alphabet?
Jim   Tuesday, June 15, 2004, 04:23 GMT
How about could also using "š" for /S/ and "ž" for /Z/? So fishhook becomes "fišhook". We'll just have to write a new song.