California

<<The /ai/ diphthong is raised in writer, it is not in rider. >>

Agree :-)

By "raised" you mean that your mouth is less open, right?

This question is for us natives,
how many of y'all pronounce matter and madder with the same flat t sound?

"matter" and "madder" are different for me. For me, "madder" doesn't have a flat "t" sound, it's definitely "d".

<<This question is for us natives,>>

LOL! It seems that a lot of native speakers need help with their English. ;-)

<I'm surprised you say you pronounce "writer" and "rider" exactly the same. Do you also make no distinction between the "e" sounds in "bet" and "bed"? >

Where was that? I don't recall having said I pronounce "writer" and "rider" the same. In fact, I pronounce them using "Canadian raising".

[Not sure of the referent of "you": "you personally, CalifJim" or "you Californians".]

However, I've heard Californians who do pronounce "writer" and "rider" the same.

I say the "e" sounds in "bet" and "bed" the same as far as vowel quality, but there's probably a difference in the timing which I'm not perceptive enough to characterize.

<By "raised" you mean ... less open>

Yes. Another way to describe it is that before an unvoiced consonant, the initial vowel of the diphthong in 'loud' changes from 'ah' to 'uh'. Likewise for the initial vowel of the diphthong in 'wide'.

The change (raising) can also happen in a few other places, but as far as I know, not with any predictable regularity. For example, I raise in 'fire', 'iron', 'iris', but not in 'Irene', 'Byron'. Contrary to the usual pattern, I raise in 'idle'. But not in 'bridal' as expected. And not, which is weirder yet, in 'idol'. Go figure.

<<If I am reading a passage in a language I am trying to learn (e.g. German) should I try to hear the equivalent English word in my head or the German word in my head, or neither>>

Definitely not 'hear the ... English'!!!

I'd say -- Hear the German word in your head (or say the German word aloud, i.e., read aloud) AND see its meaning / what it refers to in your head at the same time. It works for me.

Say 'Zimmer' and imagine, picture, conjure up in your mind a room. Do not imagine the look of the English word 'room' r-o-o-m. Do not imagine the sound of the spoken word 'room'. Just soak in the sight and sound of 'Zimmer' while imagining or actually looking at a room.

The more abstract it gets, the more difficult the imagining. Say 'Angst' and 'feel the fear'! Eventually even the most abstract concepts can be understood in German this way. Well, I think so anyway!

"Where was that? I don't recall having said I pronounce 'writer' and 'rider' the same. In fact, I pronounce them using 'Canadian raising'. "

You raise the sound on "rider" too? I wasn't aware that people in this country do that. When I use "Canadian raising" on rider, it doesn't sound American to me at all, it sounds Canadian. But on "writer" the person could be either American or Canadian.

I just read the whole thread, and now I will say a couple of things as I am a Riverside, County native (Riverside, County is in Southern California :-).

I pronounce "matter" and "madder," and "rider" and "writer," and "cot" and "caught," the same in regaurds to each pair of words. And a new set; I pronounce "paws" and "pause" the same too.

I have been up and down California, and I cannot ever remember meeting people who distinguish between "cot" and "caught." The most common "native" California native English accent besides the standard would be more of a Mid Western drawl like that found in Oklahoma, Texas or Arkansas.

That is all I can think of at the moment.

Clark and everyone, the flap ''t'' is not a ''d'' but a ''t''. The ''t'' in ''matter'' is much different to the ''t'' in ''time'' but that still doesn't make it a ''d''. So, ''matter'' and ''madder'' are not pronounced the same way.

That may be true in some areas; but in California, especially inland Southern California, this is NOT true.

What is not true,
explain yourself

<<"Where was that? I don't recall having said I pronounce 'writer' and 'rider' the same. In fact, I pronounce them using 'Canadian raising'. "

You raise the sound on "rider" too? >>

Ryan, No.

When I said "I pronounce them using 'Canadian raising'", I meant I pronounce them by applying the rule for 'Canadian raising'. That rule says there is a difference in the sound of long-i, depending on whether the following consonant is voiced or not. So, following that rule, I pronounce them differently. The 't' being unvoiced, the 'd' being voiced, raising occurs in "writer", but not in "rider".

Whew! :-)

<<I cannot ever remember meeting people who distinguish between "cot" and "caught." [in CA]>>

That surprises me. I think I speak like most of the other Californians around me, but I say 'o' and 'au' differently, even though, admittedly, there isn't a lot of difference.

I can't imagine saying "paw" as "Pa" or "daughter" as "dodder".

Have I picked up a more General American accent by listening to too many newscasters on national networks?