Andorra

Simon   Thursday, January 06, 2005, 21:36 GMT
That it is odd. But come to think of it, the fact that you have to travel through many miles of Canadian soil from the continental US to get to Alaska is quite strange as well.
Ved   Friday, January 07, 2005, 03:58 GMT
I bet it's the other way round now, gay Americans coming up here to get married and all. We're the progressive ones now.
alec   Friday, January 07, 2005, 08:39 GMT
Jordi,

I did not know anything about Llivia


Do you guys consider Monaco as french?
I have the feeling many people think it is, but it's not.
.   Friday, January 07, 2005, 09:18 GMT
alec,
Shut up nic.
alec   Friday, January 07, 2005, 10:19 GMT
.

?
Rip   Friday, January 07, 2005, 17:20 GMT
I visited Llivia last summer, and i have to say that it is nothing but a very small village with very few inhabitants and with any particular tourist appeal. But I think this strangesness is very funny because it's quite anachronistic nowadays... imagine a little spanish enclave in France!!
The treaty of the pyrenees in 1659 annouced that Cerdagne was shared betwenn France and Spain. But the treaty specified that only "villages" could be given to France, and at the time Llivia was considered as a city. Therefore, 33 villages became french but Llivia remained spanish.
Weird...
lester   Friday, January 07, 2005, 17:23 GMT
yes, weird
Tiffany   Friday, January 07, 2005, 17:52 GMT
I've always known Monaco is not a French holding. It is a separate country and has its own monarchy, though its relations with France are quite close. I believe in it located in French territory and the official language is French (though other languages are spoken there as well).
Jordi   Friday, January 07, 2005, 18:47 GMT
What I find anachronistic is a part of a country colonised by its neighbour and in Europe! I did say Llívia had something like 1300 inhabitants and 12 km2. Regarding the beauty of the Pyrenees, regardless of the village, there's little to be said. The fact that Catalonia is shared by Spain and France is what ought to make people think. Yes, weird, very weird indeed.
Smithee   Friday, January 07, 2005, 21:16 GMT
I've often wondered how a tiny principality like Monaco was able to fend off an aggressive, expansionist power like France, and maintain its independence. I mean, if you're going to annex the Languedoc, Provence, the Cerdagne, Savoy, Corsica, Alsace, et. al., why not annex Monaco while you're at it?
lls   Friday, January 07, 2005, 21:23 GMT
I believe that Monaco well become part of France territory if the royal family does not produce a successor to the Prince. Will not happen soon but one day maybe it will be part of France.
Rip   Saturday, January 08, 2005, 14:21 GMT
Jordi, I think you really tend to exaggerate...you let it be understood that France colonised this region. I suppose you have ever spoken with perpignanais or the "french catalans". Of course, many of them feel affection for their spanish neighbours. But none of them would like to separate from France because they're proud of being french.
Your argument is too "ethniscist", if you take my meaning...
If we apply your reasoning, why is the Val d'aran in catalonia since the population is not spanish (or catalan) but occitan ( and so french...)??
Nowadays there is absolutely no reason to change the border between France and Spain....
Rip   Saturday, January 08, 2005, 14:41 GMT
To Smeethie:
First, regions such as Savoy or Alsace was not annexed by force. They (the people) chose to be french. I advise you not to tell an alsatian that he's not french (the worst thing is to say he is german), because I have never seen in my life more patriotic peole than the alsatian. You'll see french flag everywhere if you go in alsace!!!

Concerning Provence or languedoc, it's different. This region were annexed by the french kingdom a very long time ago (actually, in the middle age). At this time, you have to know that the concept of "nation" didn't exist yet and people were not educated. So people who lived in this region didn't care about who ran their country, wether it was the french king or the count of...toulouse, whatever. they were much more concened by foods... Today, southern france is totally...well "french".
Jordi   Saturday, January 08, 2005, 16:31 GMT
According to you, of course, I've never been to Perpinyà, nor to Llívia, nor to Andorra, nor to all the other villages that are less than 200 km. (2 hrs. driving) from where I live and the French and Spanish Catalans are foreign to each other and do not share the same language and culture. I, of course, do not have friends over there and do not know the situation they live. I wouldn't speak French nor know that country at all. Fool yourself but don't fool me.
We are their "Spanish neighbours" and they are our "French neighbours" but we aren't noth Catalan and, if we are, it is in some "Indian" tribal sense and we haven't been a proud independent nation for centuries whether it be on our own or in association with neighbouring states. I imagine that as Spaniards, we Catalans would be much closer to people from Seville or Madrid than people from Perpinyà (known to us as "perpinyanencs" thank you).
Of course, I have to come to this forum to read and understand my own history and to see how what you don't like is not only an anachronism but "ugly" (remember your comments on Llívia, which were totally out of the question).
Did you realise that here are Catalan flags all over "French Catalonia"? I'm always surprised at their amount. Many more I can assure you that on this side. I suppose your comment is good enough for Alsace but not for the Rosselló (Roussillon, for you). I'm always amazed at the sound of the Catalan language and people dancing "la Sardana", the Catalan national dance in all the village squares. I, of course, know that 40% of the population are recent immigrants from the rest of France and that the Catalans on that side have been brought up to feel ashamed of what they are. I can assure you that more and more of the younger crowd are realising what has been going on. You will, of course, deny all this the same way you will deny the majority of Alsatians speak a German dialect at home and study, very often, in German universities.
Medieval people weren't educated and couldn't, therefore, belong to a nation. Why on earth would they die in the battlefields fighting against the northern French and calling them French in their epic poems? Occitania was the most educated place in Europe in the Middle Ages. Remember Muret in 1213. Why would the people in Hastings fight against the invasors in 1066?
I can imagine we could carry on and on and that the history I've learnt won't make your French Jacobin spirit happy. I understand you very well because I have exactly the same feeling towards what you say.
I can assure you I'm not a kid nor an non educated guy and that Catalonia has been a nation for many centuries. Even the Spaniards agree even if it is to say that we now belong to Spain, except, of course, for that part of the country that was given away to the French. Anyway, I agree it's up to them to decide but don't treat them as ignorants "morts de faim" and let them have all the facts. Please.
Jordi   Saturday, January 08, 2005, 16:36 GMT
Regarding the Val d'Aran it's the only place in the world where Occitan is a co-official language next to Catalan and Spanish. This is due, of course, to a Catalan law.
Although the Val d'Aran has been in Catalonia for many centuries it is a fact they are Occitans. You are right that France and Spain won't change borders (nor would the European Union want to) but I'm sure that the Val d'Aran belongs to Occitania although they are only too happy to be on this side of the border right now. Shame on France!