How can the of English be numbered? English will continue to be the dominant European language for the forseeable future - it is THE language to use if you want to be successful in business. Chinese is spoken by the most people (and even that is just a group of closely-related languages) although English is still the most dominant language. Even the Chinese are scrambling to learn it - unbelievably, there are more people in China learning English than there are people who live in the United States.
"Let us respect each other and build a bright new future where a language or a people aren't above the rest. "
Hi jordi, just a question, do you have any problem with catalonian people speaking spanish? (besides catalán..i mean) I´m wandering..because if you only spoke catalan there then we couldnt understand each other in Spain. Also the same thing could happen in Valencia, Mallorca, galicia, the basque country and even asturias. They would have the same right to make their cooficial language as official. Well, everybody in Spain could learn all the languages in spain so that we hadn´t any problem when visiting other areas of spain where the spanish is not the official language but all this sounds like a mess to me. Just a silly thought of mines...
What would be the ideal situation under your point of view and what do you want for cataluña, im just curious.
I think I've made it clear in my previous posts.
One state doesn't mean one language. The same happens in Switzerland, Belgium, Canada and a few other states. All Catalonian people learn Spanish because the Spanish constitutions says it is "the official language of the state" but you should learn Catalan is you pretend to live in Catalonia for a long period. It's only fair and that's what co-official and bilingual means. It doesn't mean I have to be bilingual in Catalonia whilst you would only have to be monolingual. Why do we have to be the only bilinguals if you are to live in our country. We are a welcoming land, which only expects a little respect. Is that too much to ask?
You have reached a reasonable level of English and should you wish to live in Catalonia you could reach a similar level of Catalan in less than a year, depending on how keen you are. You can of course, expect all the others to switch to Spanish just because you're around but where does that leave Catalan? The fact is not all Spaniards are native Castilian speakers. Is that so difficult for you to understand? Over 20% of the Spanish population speaks Catalan (including Catalonia, Valencian Country and Balearic Islands and minor areas in Aragon and Murcia) and that is the majority language in that area taken as a whole.
That doesn't mean you have to learn Catalan if you come on holiday or for a long week end. Very few Catalans will not switch to Castilian if asked politely. It's when they hear things like "habla español que estamos en España!" (Speak Spanish because we are in Spain) that some of us get quite crazy. We switch to any language we know to help somebody b ut nobody likes to be tread upon.
I can assure you I have no problem learning Romance languages. I would learn Galician or Portuguese easily (should I decide to live in Galicia or Portugal of course) and I would enrol in a Basque language course should I decide to live in a place where most of my neighbours speak Basque or where a lot of the local life (TV, culture, etc.) goes on in Basque. I might never get to be really fluent but I'd do my best to understand what's going on.
Yes over 40% of Spaniards live in autonomous regions where there are two official languages. So what? Make the best of it and when in Rome do as Romans do .
wow..jordi..im sorry if i offended you with my question but you do sound agresive there :-) ok ill learn catalan, dont worry. Now basque would be more difficult to learn, it´s not the type of language that you can learn in a few months and theid have the same right to ask me to speak in basque if i´m to live there (by the way, how many years am i allowed to i live there without speaking it? joking :-) ) . I think its good that you want to preserve your language and you´re lucky if you´re bilingual but it´s not the same learning a language as a child than learning it as an adult so..it might not be so simple what youre asking for. Anyway, i understand your point...
Ana, no pretendía ser agresivo. Translation: I didn't pretend to be agressive. I just wanted to make sure you understood our feelings about this issue. It's no a matter of time, it's a matter of attitude. For example, if you have a job here you will probably be spoken in Castilian but you shouldn't go around asking people who have always spoken in Catalan with each other to switch. You might decide to start saying a few things in Catalan and end up speaking the language. Some of my best friends have done that.
We can usually tell the "invader" from the "friend", we have a special flair for that and quite a bit of practice.
Adam, the reason that English's days are numbered is simply due to English's own success, which has put English in the position where its fragmentation into a number of daughter languages, with itself just being left in the role of a learned literary language that most don't natively speak, is practically inevitable. Were English not so widely spoken, this would not be likely, simply because the conditions which would enable such fragmentation would not be in place. Overall, besides the spread of Estuary English in the UK, English dialects are spreading, and it is only a matter of time, even though that time may be centuries, before such spreading starts reducing the crossintelligibility between English dialects, and English dialects start coming into their own as separate languages, even though literary English may still be very well used as a written language.
Jordi is right. Català is co-official in Catalunya along with spanish. It´s very disrepectful if one lives in Catalunya for a long time and still speak spanish with a person who always speak in català,and also the opposite so if you don´t want to talk català don´t speak with them. I lived during eight months in Catalunya and i didn´t need to speak in català, i mix with people that i knew they speak only spanish. There is a large population of spanish speaking natives. They said me where to buy in castilian spanish shops, etc. You haven´t to force anybody to speak spanish or català although he/she is living in there during a long time, everybody is perfectly entitled to speak his/her native language (spanish, català) without being insulted. Vive y deja vivir.
"Regarding politics the only thing most Catalans want is to be Catalan.
If to be Catalan is a noble, fair way to be Spanish I imagine most would agree. The problem is we get a lot of interference from Spanish nationalistic politics. That is a fact"
That is absolutely true. However the first part makes some sad reading, seems that the main political idea in catalonia is how to be catalan. In fact that was the impression I got when I was there. It happens to a lesser extent in galicia and i think its a rather poor self centered and even selfish way of conceiving politics. A little bit as if the european project becomes the means of worshipping our european past: i d rather discuss about redistribution, centralism vs decentralisation, liberalisation vs the state involvement etc. Nationalism is more of a religion than a real political idea, its not transmitable to another fellow human being unless he s part of the tribe.
"After all, we never invaded other parts of Spain and obliged them to speak our language (except for the Moors but we all did that in our great Catholic days.)"
Absolutely not true, as yourself admit in your post: that was the way the paisos catalans were born, which by the way did cover a fair bit of the med back in the days (but didnt hold on partly because of a secular decline of the crown of aragon in the late middle ages).
"Barcelona has to be a major European and world city, a city proud of its culture and opened to the world."
This was maybe my main point, and also relates to the marca hispanica stuff. there is no doubt about the european projection of barcelona and catalonia in general, but similar historic claims can be made for other spanish regions at other times in history (Santiago and the pilgrimages or the trade fair in late middle ages castile and its links to the Atlantic trade, following by the massive european involvement of spain as a whole in the 1500s and 1600s) these same areas had periods of great isolation aswell, which can also be said about catalonia.
I think the historical obsession obscures a fact that for me is almost self evident: barcelona is very much a spanish city like valencia zaragoza or madrid can be. Barcelonas best hopes of european projection are with the hand of the rest of spain. Or rather, barcelona can do without, but by doing so it is robbing itself of a great strengh, and so it will achieve a lot less. (That is a general truth, applies to madrid as well for example, and I doubt many ppl in madrid grasp it, they wouldnt be so parochial in their view of what spain is).
My stay in barcelona and catalonia gave me the impression of a land blessed with many virtues but probably because of that has become self-obsessed and navel-gazing. By comparison, id say madrid is simply blissfully ignorant, which for me is a much better attitude. My brother lives now there and has a similar view.
well, enough reflections for now, could write a little book about catalonia, they say envy makes the greatest inspiration :)
I wanted to rescue an example I gave before that I think illustrate a point of view easily misunderstood in catalonia:
"My impression is that the political charge associated to catalan is detrimental to the popularity of the language among spanish speakers. To use a familiar example, the special status generates a rejection similar to the one most ppl in the EU (im sure catalans included) feel about the UK when they hear their constant rumblings against the EU: why cant they simply accomodate? Its possibly unfair, but very understandable nontheless"
The attempt to create a artificial difference causes rejection in the remainder of a group. The key of course is who says the difference is 'created' and not a real one? thats why my UK example: the difference is real, but is also perceived as petty in comparison with the ones u face in the wider world. Im sure many catalans have wondered whats wrong with english ppl that they dont want the euro - or is it that they dont want to associate themselves to the underperforming continentals? and who do they think they are then. A very similar line of thought can be traced in anticalanism in spain (at least the sophisticated variety)
A second example brings the role of spanish as the main language of spain: Is English the main language of europe? the jury is still out, but the fact is that me and Jordi are writing in English, rather than spanish or french. If this continues and deepens over time, who could deny English its role as the main language in Europe? A similar situation has happend in Spain with castellano, only for longer and deeper, which in my eyes has stablished castellano as common language across spain. And im happy with it, its a compromise between catalan and portugues, and expresses very well those things quintaessentially spanish I found in santiago madrid and barcelona, i like it as mine like i like those things as mine
ole mis discursos :)
xuloChavez,
"Im sure many catalans have wondered whats wrong with english ppl that they dont want the euro - or is it that they dont want to associate themselves to the underperforming continentals?"
I'm not sure I understand what you meant. The UK was desesperate to join the EEC in the 60's-70's when the country was in an impasse. Today Britons seem to be rather hostile to the EU and reluctant to further political integration. If they think so because they see the EU as 'underperforming', then I'm afraid they are 1/ wrong and 2/ once more showing little consideration to others while others bothered to rescue the UK 3 decades ago. If their hostility towards the EU has nothing to do with alleged 'underperformance' of the EU, then their case is even more severe than I figured out : irremediably lost for the cause.
"but the fact is that me and Jordi are writing in English, rather than spanish or french"
Because this forum is in English. Perhaps there are more forums in German where interesting things are said. We just can't see that from Antimoon. I don't know what's the German turnout in this forum. If it's low, it may simply mean our German fellows go talk elsewhere : in a European German-speaking forum for instance.
greg, one line explanations are never good enough to explain a persons behaviour, let alone a whole society, but I still think think that the perception of a unsuccessful EU is the strongest factor in rejecting it (I think you agree with that).
Im talking about perceptions, which of course are always a distance away from reality: I dont agree with the supposed underperformance of the EU. On the other hand, I dont necessarily agree with the rejection that this perception generates within the rest of the EU: they are fully entitled to take their own decissions. My point is to illustrate how rejection can be born out of very reasonable feelings (since most ppl share them when at the same side of the equation), rather than more primitive domination instincts.
Anticatalanism in Spain is always based on Catalan identity. It doesn't matter if a Catalan is openly a Spanish Nationalist or a Catalan Nationalist. I know Catalan Spanish Nationalists who ask to be forgiven most of the time for being "too Catalan" "malgré eux".
The mere fact of being "too Catalan", of speaking Catalan or even to speak perfect Standard Spanish with a Catalan accent renders a political or job interview candidate suspicious to the point that there will never be a Catalan president in Madrid. You can be elected not only with a Castilian accent but also with a moderate Basque or Galician accent. There are, of course, a couple of Catalan ministers (secretaries of State) but it is extremely difficult to have a Catalan candidate voted outside of Catalonia regardless of his deep Spanish convictions.
You can, of course, have an Andalusian (Felipe González) or even an Aragonese, Asturian or Murcian accented President.
The fact is not only many Catalans consider themselves "foreigners" in Spain but many Spaniards consider Catalans some sort of "foreigners" who have to be Spaniards in order to have the Real Madrid beat Barcelona. I, of course, make a caricature but I trust you will be able to read between lines.
The fact that Catalonia is probably Spain's richest autonomous region (although it only has less than 20% of the Spanish population) explains quite a lot. Catalonia gives more superavit to the Spanish State than any other Spanish region and yet we are told that we are always asking for too much.
As I said previously I have no problems whatsoever regarding the State as long as that State guarantees my rights and the rights of the collectivity I belong to. We have been Catalan-speakers for over a thousand years and we were the first Hispanics since Rome invaded the peninsula by the Mediterranean coast.
We just have to make sure we understand what Spanish and being Spanish means. As I said before we are amongst the most international citizens in this part of the planet and always have been. If anybody has been closed to the rest of the world it certainly wasn't Catalonia. Catalonia has always been a gateway to the world in Spain's darkest hours.
There is a big difference between the great pilgrimage route of Santiago de Compostela since the Galicians saw pilgrims pass through their villages but they rarely had any influence in the rest of the known world. The Catalan Countries not only gave the only popes Hispania ever gave Europe. Calixtus III and Alexandre VI, the Valencian Borja family who spoke and wrote all their documents in Catalan to the point that the saying "O Dio, la chiesa Romana in mani di catalani!" became famous in Rome ("Good Lord! The Roman chair in the hand of Catalans!" Very few Spaniards actually know pages of Spanish history, which are deemed to be "too Catalan" for traditional Castille's historics interests. Catalan has given some of the most important European writers from the 14th to the 16th century and an extremely important production from the 19th century to date although Catalan was forbidden between 1939-1975 as an official language and many were punished for using it (I know what I speak about since my parents were exiled during 20 years in France and Australia and that's where I learnt my native Catalan, French and English.)
Spain cannot expect her Catalan people to go around the world as second class citizens or "acting the part" in order to make the rest of the world believe Spain is a monoglot, monocultural country. If we must learn Spanish, fair enough and we readily do so but we want to be known for who we are and how we are. The day that happens Spain will have reconciled itself with her land and its peoples.
Although we have evolved in the right path in the past 25 years there is still a long way to go. I can assure you it's much easier to be born in certain places than in others and I'm glad I was born in Europe.
Jordi
"....to the point that there will never be a Catalan president in Madrid. You can be elected not only with a Castilian accent but also with a moderate Basque or Galician accent"
That´s false. Joseph Borrell won the PSOE's primary elections to become the party's candidate for the office of Prime Minister in 1998 but he didn´t win the elections. Aznar got absolute majority.
Josep Borrell Fontelles was born on 24 April 1947 in a small town in the Catalonian Pyrenees. And he has a slight catalonian accent.
Rajoy is from Galicia but he has never been president of the government.
With regard to Literature, literature in spanish is light years ahead of literature in catalan.
Some writers in spanish from the 19th
José de Espronceda (badajoz)
Mariano Jose de Larra (madrid)
Gustavo adolfo Becquer (sevilla)
Juan Valera (cordoba)
Benito Perez Galdos ( canarias)
Leopoldo alas clarin (Zamora)
hmmm Jordi you make many points regarding History which are, as every view on history (prior to the times of trustworthy statistics), subjective and in fact highly dependant on your perpective.
In particular the point about pilgrims passing through villages sounds a bit unfair, since the goal of this pilgrims, Santiago, was by no means a village and its influence helped secure the role of galaico-portugues as the language of culture in the whole kingdom of Castilla in the high Middle ages. At the same time, France is littered with remains from this pilgrimage, in which you will agree the destination was at least an important part.
Times change and fortunes wane, and just like barcelona was overtaken by valencia in the low middle ages santiago fell out of favour and portugal took over. In many respects though portugal is just as much a member of the galician culture as valencia of catalan, and went on to historical achivements that again in my very subjective view far exceed the consacration of 2 popes in Rome. To this day, Santiago is still well known in brazil, probably more than calixtus III and Alexandre VI
Similarly, to conclude that catalonia was always a getaway to europe in the times of spanish isolation just because that was the case during the second half of 19th century and the 20th century is for me proof of poor intellectual rigour.
I think ppl tend to mistake historical circumstances for cultural essences. I think that is the case in the widely held view of the european credentials of catalonia with respect to the rest of europe. And I think that if these were only historical circumstances, then they prove little about what the current catalonia is, which is for me the main point. I think in general the analysis of what the catalan/basque /galician peoples are is obsessed with historical facts whose relevance (apart from franquist repression) is long gone. I think that is the case in your analysis, and I think that prevents you to see the very obvious common points in the culture lifestyle aspirations and then again language of course within Spain, which are for me a lot more relevant than historical facts I have to read books to remind myself about.