Catalan language in danger?

Jordi   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 11:40 GMT
José Borrell was a member of Parliament of the Madrid regional government, a city where he has lived since his first university year and where he has lived for over 30 years (since 1975).
"Nacido el 24 de abril de 1947 en Pobla de Segur (Lérida), Borrell, a quien algunos definen como un catalán afincado en Madrid, ingresó en el partido en 1975, lo que le hace presumir frecuentemente de llevar en el PSOE "media vida"."

Borrell never was the official candidate since he had to resign before the actual elections. Quite a sad story.

Borrell speaks Spanish with an almost perfect Spanish Standard accent and definitely sounds more madrileño than catalan to the average Catalan who lives in Catalonia.

After that episode, the Spanish government decided to have him as a "Catalan" candidate to the European Presidency (it's more comfortable to have a Catalan in Brussels than in Madrid even if he's an adoptive madrileño), so he officially changed his name to "Josep" and slightly varied his phonetics to sound "slightly" Catalan.

As president of the European Parliament Borrell had to forbid a Catalan nationalist from speaking in Catalan in Europe. The shame on us is that it had to be a Catalan-native speaker who had to do this although he perfectly understood what Bernat Joan from the island of Eivissa (Balearic Islands) had said.

I would remind you of the Miquel Roca operation a few years back; with a Catalan name all over Spain and a definite Catalan accent (a highly educated conservative man) there was nothing he could do.

I happen to be Catalan and to travel all over Spain and I have been rejected for speaking Catalan with my wife and children in a restaurant or public places, and not only once. Thank God that doesn't happen as much as it used to happen.
xuloChavez   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 11:46 GMT

Just one more comment on Jordi's post

Jordi wrote
"The fact that Catalonia is probably Spain's richest autonomous region (although it only has less than 20% of the Spanish population) explains quite a lot. Catalonia gives more superavit to the Spanish State than any other Spanish region and yet we are told that we are always asking for too much."

These are 2 very arguable claims. Madrid is definitely richer than catalonia, although that was to be expected since it concentrates the headquaters of many companies that operate throughout Spain, which COULDNT possibly exist without the rest of the spanish market. A similar argument can be applied to barcelona and by extension to catalonia.

The fiscal deficit of the spanish government is a highly debated subject between econometrics experts and shouldnt be presented as an obvious facts. Basically there is 2 studies (dont remember the authors names but can find out) that reach completely opposite conclusions on this subject.
Chloe   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 11:50 GMT
Catalonia (1640 - 1652)

In Catalonia, the rebellion was against the Spanish monarchy a part of the ruler class as well as the attitude of the Spanish soldiers. Catalonian rebellion was directly connected with the war with France as the Catalonians decided to give the crone of the principally to the French king (even if the Catalonian discovered that to live under French rules was not easy).

Battle of Montjuïc in 1641: Franco - Catalan victory over the Spanish
Battle of Lerida in 1642: Franco - Catalan victory over Spain.
Siege of Monzón by the Spanish in 1643: Spanish victory over the Franco - Catalan
Siege of Lérida by the Spanish in 1644: Spanish victory over France.
Siege of Lérida by the French in 1647: Spanish victory over France.
Siege of Barcelona by the Spanish in 1652: Spanish victory over the Franco - catalan forces.

What would the future be of the catalonian language today if Spain had lost that war?
greg   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 12:02 GMT
Chloe : this reminds me of the Treaty of Pyrénées (1659) according to which a municipe called Llivia escaped Francisation as it wasn't mentioned in the list of 33 Cerdanian villages to be ceded to France. Admittedly, Mazarin noticed that Llivia was missing. Don Luis de Haro seemed to have reminded him that Llivia had so far enjoyed a special status that rendered its cession to France impossible. And it's still the case today.

Is Llivia a part of Catalunya ?
Jordi   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 12:06 GMT
We can, of course, continue on and on and explain a few more things. I suggest people interested in Spanish politics to follow other forums, which can also be found in English.

I trust the will of the Catalan people to remain Catalan in the first place (something nobody should argue) has been understood. The more we are respected the less problems there will be.

Anti-Catalanism is an age old problem in Spain. When Isabel of Castille died, in the late 15th century, her husband Ferdinand of Aragon inherited what many have called "the unity of Spain under the Catholic Kings." which wasn't such since Catalan was the only official language until 1714 and the dynastic union was more a "commonwealth" union.

Once she died, a king glorified in present day Spanish schools, suffered an enormous propaganda campaign against him in Castile. It was mainly based on one thing and the name they gave him: "el catalanote", which we could roughly translate as the Catalan bastard since "ote" is often despective in Spanish (it normally means "big") The fact is Isabel and Ferdinand were cousins and both belonged to the Trastámara family, of Castilian origin but Ferdinand ruled over Aragon and the Catalan-speaking countries.

In Castilian there is a saying, which can also be translated into Catalan or English: "amor con amor se paga" "l'amor es paga amb amor" or "Love is paid by love".

Y a buen entendedor, pocas palabras bastan! A rough translation from Castilian would be: not many words are needed when one is in the secret.
Chloe   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 12:06 GMT
".. a quien algunos definen como un catalán afincado en Madrid". This is a little pejorative. Are you less catalan if you live in Madrid?.

"... lo que le hace presumir frecuentemente de llevar en el PSOE "media vida"." You cannot be affiliate to Psoe and be catalan?.


"Borrell speaks Spanish with an almost perfect Spanish Standard accent and definitely sounds more madrileño than catalan to the average Catalan who lives in Catalonia". He has a slight catalonian accent not as much as rovira or maragal but he has it.


"As president of the European Parliament Borrell had to forbid a Catalan nationalist from speaking in Catalan in Europe". You only can speak the official languages in that parliament and he ensured that the rules are upheld. You can not act like an anarchist. Rules have to be enforced.
Jordi   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 12:21 GMT
The sentences in Spanish, I forgot to tell you, are from the Madrid ABC newspaper, the stronghold of Spanish monarchists and rightist nationalists, the great Spanish paper in Franco's days. Maybe I'll look up what they said on the front page when they entered Barcelona in 1939 smashing all Catalan language sign posts in their way. Catalan was kept up until the 20th century because over 50% of the population couldn't read or write until the 1930s, not even in Spanish whilst everybody could read and write in France in the 1880s. In Spanish it's called "querer y no poder" (to want to but not to be able to).

It is them you must blame for not considering a Catalan who has been living in Madrid 30 years, not as Spanish as the rest. It doesn't really matter for ABC if you're born in Salamanca or Valladolid but to be Catalan and socialist in Madrid must be something awful for them. As you can see it only proves my point regarding some (not all but quite a few) Spaniards.

Regarding the PSOE and Catalans (it's only called PSC in Catalonia and they have a federative base) it's also from the same ABC article you can check in the Internet.

My right to speak Catalan in Europe doesn't make me an anarchist. Catalans can't be anarchists and nationalists at the same time, that only works in some old fashioned propaganda.
A algunos se les ve el plumero.
Rough translation: The feathers on your head are too obvious.
Chloe   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 12:36 GMT
"... for not considering a Catalan who has been living in Madrid 30 years, not as Spanish as the rest".
I see Abc and Left republicana of Cataluña share a lot more than I thought. It´s amazing.

"Regarding the PSOE and Catalans (it's only called PSC in Catalonia and they have a federative base) it's also from the same ABC article you can check in the Internet".
The vast majority of people that vote to Psc is voting to Psoe (it´s their branch). If PSC were a party separated from Psoe would get very little votes. The "constitucionalistas" vote to psoe. If you want to vote "nacionalista" you get Ciu, Left republicana....

"My right to speak Catalan in Europe doesn't make me an anarchist. Catalans can't be anarchists and nationalists at the same time, that only works in some old fashioned propaganda."
You are manipulating what i wrote. I write "You only can speak the official languages in that parliament and he ensured that the rules are upheld. You can not act like an anarchist. Rules have to be enforced". Read it very carefully. I wrote "In That Parliament" not in Europe.
Jordi   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 12:47 GMT
That parliament represents me as a European citizen. Catalan is spoken by 8 million people and Maltese by 400.000. Maltese is official and Catalan isn't.

I'm glad to see the Spanish Government has realised this (thanks to Esquerra Republicana?) and that the other three official languages in Spain will also be given official acknowledgement (in the near futures, I expect) since they have presented a "memorandum" in Catalan, Basque and Galician.

That doesn't mean, of course, that we have to increase the "working" languages but Catalan and the other European languages have the right to be heard "in Europe" or the "European Parliament".

Answering what you consider to be my weak points is also a form of manipulation. It hasn't been easy for us to be Catalan and Spanish (what we have always been since Roman and Medieval times) in the past few centuries. I'm only asking Spain not to make it more difficult. If that is too much asking it's hardly surprising there are so many unsatisfied Catalans.

As far as Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya is concerned it has always been a democratic party that has been against dictatorships and violence. Ya quisieran algunos tener esas credenciales sea en Madrid o en Sebastopol.

I can assure you I'm not a voter of ERC but I'm against all kind of demonisation, especially when it is based on Spanish Nationalistic interests.
xuloChavez   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 13:12 GMT

Jordi wrote: "My right to speak Catalan in Europe doesn't make me an anarchist."

It is indeed a shame that Catalan cannot be used in the European parliament, but to blame that on a spansih conspiracy its just as unfair. It would be hard to argue in favour of including catalan and leave out basque or galician. Another problem is the status of valencian. No matter what the linguistic experts agree, in the end it is down to the people in Valencia to decide whether the would like to follow the catalan canon or consacrate the dialectal difference into the official language of the comunity. Apparently a number of catalan political forces would oppose any move that granted official status to valencian within europe. So its not just the successive spanish goverments dragging their feet, but more that it is a difficult problem to solve. Also I have the impression that moves to include catalan would have strong opposition from France.

I think this is the kind of problems that can be solved only if pragmatism is applied. For example, myself id be ready to recognise that catalan is significantly more widespread than galician (if you include valencian) so probably should have priority as opposed to galician (or basque, breton etc), valencians could agree on a common norm with catalans so that their common language was represented in europe, etc

However this is the same kind of common sense that would also require catalans to admit that spanish is a lot more widespread that catalan and so the use of the later could be dropped in some institutions, simply for practical reasons (since they are just as able to comunicate in spanish). Now Im not sure a majority of those who claim official status for catalan in Europe would agree with this.

But to go back to the point, I think it would make sense for catalan to be official at least in the european parliament (since its already so multilingual)

(Regarding the comments in ABC, I think its very unfair to judge the attitude in Spain by the views of a newspaper with a minority audience. You should probably use EL Pais or even El Mundo and would get a better picture of what spain at large currently thinks.)
Chloe   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 13:13 GMT
" Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya is concerned it has always been a democratic party that has been against dictatorships and violence". I am not surprised that you write this considering your parent were part of the republican side.

"los catalanistas de ERC (Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) que gobernaban con Lluis Companys la Generalitat catalana y veian con sumo recelo la victoria (legitima) conservadora y la subsiguiente entrada en el gobierno de la CEDA, proclaman la noche del 6 al 7 de octubre el Estado Catalán dentro de la República Federal Española lo que propicia la intervención del general Batet, jefe de la 4ª División Orgánica, en Barcelona y la detención de Companys, así como la suspensión del estatuto de autonomía de 1932". Vieron que un gobierno de derechas entraba en el gobierno y decidieron que ellos mismos se convertian en Estado.

Yes, they were very democratics. They did what Ibarretxe want to do but without any election or referendum.


"Answering what you consider to be my weak points is also a form of manipulation"
I am not manipulating, I am disproving your "weak points" like you say.
xuloChavez   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 13:24 GMT

In fact, I think the best idea for regulating language use should be that each language is included at the suggestion of a national/regional goverment, which would have to pay for all the translation services required by the addition.

This way people could put their money where their mouth is, and noone should have to interfere with other peoples decisions since they arent really affected.

For example: valencians want official status for their variant of catalan? they should pay the costs. or they may choose to rely on the catalan version payed by the catalan government. And everyone is happy :)
Jordi   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 13:44 GMT
I can assure you I needn't make a list of Catalan writers who would have to have some sort of literary battle with first and second class Castilian writers. There are university scholars all over the world and it's amazing how Catalan publishes 10.000 titles per year without having a state behind.

I agree I have been unfair regarding Galicia and the Gallegos. One should never personalise on other sister lands and the fact is "the other Spaniards", let me call ourselves that, share much in common as far as humiliation goes for being what we are.

You may think repression is long gone and history starts today or tomorrow. Since today will be tomorrow's yesterday, one could carry on and on with injustice ad infinitum. I did that yesterday, today I've changed, it's another day, I've changed "pero tienes que ser un buen español." One of the greatest Spanish thinkers said it clear "ser español es estar acastellanado."

I can assure we are as obsessed with our history as anybody else is. Read all the other threads: Afrikaans, Dutch, English, Scottish, Australian, Hungarian, Scandinavians, even the Québécois or the Flemish. The general idea behind all this is always: we are Castilian Spaniards (estar acastellanados) abroad but we can remain Catalan, Galician or Basque if we are nice and recognise the superiority of the "bigger Spain" in the "bigger world." It doesn't matter how many languages we are fluent at or how much we travel. "Un catalán acatalanado" será siempre un paleto. "A catalanised catalan will always be some sort of country bumpkin."
What else is Chloe's list of Spanish Romantic and 1898 Generation writers all about. It doesn't really matter she forgot some of the most important ones who learnt Catalan at home but wrote in Castilian for the sake and glory of a decadent Spain. After all Azorín wrote in Spanish because his native Catalan was never taught in his native Valencian village of Monòver, where 90% of the population still speaks Catalan.

I can assure you I love travelling all over Spain and I have done so but what makes you so sure I'm closer to Cádiz than to Marseilles, for example? It all depends on how intensively you live your own culture of course, but if I didn't speak Standard Spanish I can assure you it's easier for us to understand Occitan than the local Cádiz dialect.

Who knows Calixtus III and Alexandre VI ( the Borgia (Borja) were Catalan and called themselves Catalans even though they were from Valencia? Had these two Spanish popes been born in Zamora or Almendralejo instead of Gandía we would have "Spanish popes" "hasta en la sopa" (an every day menu). The fact is all their correspondence is in Catalan only.

Who knows that the world's great scholars consider the "cantigas de amor e amigo" (Galician-Portuguese) the most important poetry of their time and age in the Iberian peninsula? I'm convinced the Portuguese know this, and don't tell the Galician school system also makes sure they are told that page is as important as Cervantes.

Who knows Ausiàs March is considered to be (by some very notorious foreign scholars) the most important European poet in the second-half of the 15th century, whilst more importance is given to a medieval Jorge Manrique whilst the Renaissance was already flooding Valencia and Barcelona. Has Chloe read novels from contemporary Catalan writers in Catalan that have been translated to quite a few languages (not always including Spanish)?

Spanish is certainly an international means of communication and a beautiful language and I also agree Galician is official in the European Union (thanks to Portuguese and you know that Camilo Nogueira, from Galicia, spoke in Portuguese and not Spanish in the European parliament). Was he speaking a foreign language or a variation of his own? Is he a bad Spaniard because he chose a standard form of his own native language?

I'm not speaking of the past. Barcelona is the only "really major" European city, where a language that is not the State language can still be spoken by a majority of its citizens.

The main things that unite Barcelona and Seville are politics, state politics. We, of course, share a southern European culture and have walked together for a long time. I can live in the same house as you do but please let me be myself and don't try to change all my habits. The contrary leads to divorce and two different houses. It really isn't hard to understand.

I happen to speak half a dozen languages fluently and I can understand a few more. I look around and when I come back to my home and I realise how far we are from having the "normal" problems other more fortunate nations and regions have. We have all those and a few more, affecting our character and our identity, and we must have quite a bit of extra energy to cope with the situation.

I imagine you'll have realised the word "independence" never has appeared on any of my messages and yet I always have that feeling of misunderstanding. Miguel is Basque and you are Galician (that has ensured a long constructive conversation) although Chloe seems to represent what happens in the rest of the state where they seem to be rather convinced they are more Spanish than we are. Why on Earth is that?
Jordi   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 13:53 GMT
Regarding Valencian, the official Valencian Academy of the Language has recognised that it is the same language as Catalan. The Spanish Government has also recognised that Valencian and Catalan is the same language in the Official School of Languages.
Obviously, if the Catalan speaking people complain too much let's divide their language in a few.
Regarding the Catalans we didn't start a Civil War against a legally established government.
As you can see Chloe proves my point. We've got to be Spanish. Even if every single Catalan decided some sort of another arrangement we'd still have to be Spanish, but some sort of Castilian Spanish or Catalan if we are ready to acknowledge we are a "region" of a greater Spain that isn't Catalan at all.
I think everything has been said and I've tried to not get over excited, especially considering my parents spent 20 years aways from their family and home country and that a part of the family was sentenced to death for defending democracy (democracy means democracy and Lluís Companys was aclaimed by the Catalan people and murdered by Franco in a Franquist gaol).
It's hard to speak about today and tomorrow when the only real nationalists around called themselves "nacionalistas". Wasn't Spain divided into "nacionalistas" and "rojos" according to Franco? I might be wrong and I'm ready to learn "pero no me queráis vender carne por pescado". Please don't sell meat to me as if it were fish.
Muñoz   Tuesday, April 19, 2005, 14:07 GMT
people in Baleari islands and Valencia do not consider themselves ''speakers of Catalan'' since Catalan there has not been prestigious for centuries, these days they're more likely to say they speak Valencian and Balearic dialects of Castillian ...