Catalan language in danger?

greg   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 07:23 GMT
Some Republicans and Catalans who fled Franco between 36 & 39 came to France. Perhaps half a million. They were not welcomed decently and the unfortunate ones who had no connexions in the Hexagone were sent to camps only to endure horrible living conditions. That's a big shame for France who did exactly the same with German refugees in panic during pre-war Hitlerian times. The next ones to experience despair were the French themselves : occupation.

And what Jordi said about the genetic links between Catalan, Occitan and French is true. I cannot speak for Occitan but, as far as I'm aware, a French would have no problem to learn Catalan fast (except perhaps some of the pronunciation).
Vytenis   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 11:12 GMT
Travis,

I don't think that there will be the same situation with English as it was with Latin in the Middle Ages. No doubt, the situation may seem somewhat similar, but in the Middle Ages thee were not nearly so much communication, the masses of people were totally isolated, no airplanes, no CNN, no telephones, no Internet, etc. etc. so it was easier for Latin to diverge so much. Nowadays the situation is different and although English has many different dialects, but the binding forse of Standard English will not weaken.
Vytenis   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 11:17 GMT
How much mutually intelligible are Catalan and Spanish? Is it a similar situation to that of Ukrainian and Russian? Or more like between Hochdeutsch and Swiss Deutsch?
Jordi   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 11:33 GMT
It's more different than Spanish and Portuguese and closer to the difference between Spanish and French although less. Castilian Spanish and Catalan belong to absolutely different diasystems (systems of dialects) since Catalan would have to be grouped in the same diasystem than Occitan (the closest language to Catalan, especially the medieval languages although they were already different).
Ana   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 11:51 GMT
"A Castilian Spanish monoglot speaker who hears Catalan for the first time doesn't understand the language."
I´m sorry Jordi but i dont agree with that. I love Barcelona and i go there often and although i can´t speak Catalán and never took any class i do understand it quite a lot. I´d say that i understand 65% of what i hear in Catalán and i love listening to the radio as i cross Catalonia in my car to go to Barcelona.
I´m not sure if you said that in order to stress that it´s very different from Castilian or because you just can´t be objective about the way that it sounds like for a Castilian speaker who hears it for the first time (as you´re bilingual since your childhood). Anyway, i tell you that i can understand most of it. This is your word against mines so..the only way to prove it is send me a tape in catalan and ill send you the transcription of what´s being said there to prove it :-)
About its similarity or difference with Castilian i preffer not to get into that because to me thats independent from the fact that we must preserve catalan (specialy Catalans... as i´m mostly meant to preserve bable which is the language of the land where i was born in Spain).
Ana   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 11:54 GMT
"i do understand it quite a lot"= i do understand quite a lot of it
Ana   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 11:56 GMT
"the only way to prove it is send me a tape"= the only way to prove it is you sending me a tape...
Cataluña = Spain   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 12:02 GMT
Catalan is not official in Spain (unlike French, German, Italian) in Switzerland. Switzerland can send a song to Eurosong contest either sung in German, Italian or French, but Spain will only send the song in Spanish/Castillian (not in substandard local dialects like Catalan). That's why Catalan singer Beth prefered to sing in lovely Spanish and not in weird Catalan.

DIME (Canción para Eurovisión)
Mar en calma en un atardecer,
y todo vuelve a ser como era entonces.
Juego con la arena entre mis pies
dibujando sin querer tu nombre.

Cuántas veces te llame en la noche,
cuántas veces te busqué.
Por mis recuerdos yo vuelvo y no pierdo la Fe.

Dime qué es lo que puedo hacer, como te puedo tener,
en mi vida.
Vamos a olvidar el ayer y a comenzar otra vez,
sin mentiras.
Dime qué es lo que puedo hacer, como te puedo tener,
en mi vida.

Me han contado que tu estás igual,
y que te sientes mal como yo.
No permitas que el orgullo sea,
quien decida por los dos.

Porque tu sabes que te quiero,
y todo lo que dije no es verdad.
Deja tus miedos, podemos si quieres
volverlo a intentar...

Dime qué es lo que puedo hacer, como te puedo tener,
en mi vida.
Vamos a olvidar el ayer y a comenzar otra vez,
sin mentiras.
Dime qué es lo que puedo hacer, como te puedo tener,
en mi vida.

Que tu y yo sabemos
que no podemos vivir asi.
Vuelve junto a mi...

Dime qué es lo que puedo hacer, como te puedo tener,
en mi vida.
Vamos a olvidar el ayer y a comenzar otra vez,
sin mentiras.
Dime qué es lo que puedo hacer, como te puedo tener,
en mi vida.
Jordi   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 13:22 GMT
Yes, of course and most Spaniards will say they understand 50% of Italian without having heard it ever, and that is probably true in most cases but not always.
Since you speak Asturian (an archaic constitutive Latin dialect close to Castilian Spanish) I would imagine it's also easier for you.
All Romance languages are more or less understandable and it all depends on your level of education, of course.
The amazing thing is how many Castilian Spanish (especially those who don't live in Catalonia, of course) ask you to switch languages "habla en castellano que no te entendemos" "speak Spanish, we don't understand you." It doesn't have to be their conversation, for some it's enough to hear you speak it with relatives or friends whilst you're "out" of your native territory.
I'm really happy at the many people living in Catalonia from other places who have learnt the language in a short time. I did say that in a previous post.
Regarding the beauty of language, beautiful Catalan Beth (Elisabet and not Isabel) now sings and speaks Catalan on Catalan television. You know, it all depends on who pays! I still remember when she was asked to speak Spanish over the phone to her parents in "Operación Triunfo" (song contest to go to Eurovision) when it would have been nicer to put titles underneath so that Spaniards from other regions could see that Catalan is our natural language and not just some kind of hobby.
Andorra is now a member of Eurovision and since Catalan is the only official language of that independent United Nations state, that is the language they present (although most countries now prefer English or semi-English, even Spain sent a singer with an English title : Europe's living a Celebration).
The fact is the last Andorra singer is Dutch and sings beautiful Catalan.
Here you have another one calling us "weird" just because we don't share the same language.
Catalan is also the official language of three Spanish autonomous regions, meaning exactly that.
greg   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 13:49 GMT
Andorra's official language is Catalan although Spanish is used by 40 % of residents (35 % for Catalan). Portuguese is ranking third (10 %) while French is just fourth (7 %).

Andorra joined the Francophony in 2004 as associate member, though. And Chirac is the co-prince of Andorra (so is the Catalonian bishop of Urgel, I think).
Vytenis   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 14:42 GMT
I think all the minority nations can understrand each other very well. We, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians etc., used to be a part of Russia for a very long time and we can understand how exactly Catalonians feel.
Travis   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 14:53 GMT
Vytenis, the reason why I still think that there will be a similar situation with English as there was with Latin in the Middle Ages is because spoken English is not tied all that well to literary English, at least if the situation here is like that in other places in the "English-speaking world" outside North America. One may very well end up with a situation where one has much of the population being /literate/ in "classical English", for lack of a better term, yet at the same time not natively speaking "classical English". Of course, such would have the consequences that one would basically not only have to be taught how to read and write, but one would have to effectively learn another language to be /really/ literate in the first place. Such a situation would be due to individuals' native dialects will drifting away from each other, which is clearly documented at the present, and is unlikely to somehow stop, while the formal written language comparatively stays put, due to its conservativism, its being written rather than spoken, and its use as a lingua franca. In this way, yes, the situation with English in the future is likely to be different from that with Latin in the Middle Ages, as most individuals in the Middle Ages were not literate in Latin.
Ana   Wednesday, April 20, 2005, 15:34 GMT
"Yes, of course and most Spaniards will say they understand 50% of Italian without having heard it ever"
I supose that you mean that they´d say it after having heard it at least once because if they dont then how can they have a criteria...Me myself even before i wrote my last post i looked for a Catalan radio station on winamp to hear Catalan again and be sure about what i was going to say. My conclusion is that i can understand about 60% or 65% of what i hear. I understand what they are talking about but i can´t get many details because i don´t know most of the Catalan vocabulary.

"How much mutually intelligible are Catalan and Spanish? "
"Ít´s closer to the difference between Spanish and French although less"
Well, much less.. I couldnt learn French in a few months and neither i think that a French person could learn Spanish in such a short time and that´s what you said. (Anyway, a few months sounds like quite a short time even for catalan..)

About myself, I respect all the languages in Spain as i think that they make our culture richer. I never feel offended when i hear somebody speaking in Catalan or Basque, etc... around me. It´s their language and they have the right to speak it so that it doesn´t get lost. Anyway i feel first and foremost Asturian (besides Spanish) and wherever i go in Spain thats what i am. I love Asturias at least as much as you love Catalonia. There´s just a little thing about what you told me a couple of days ago that i can´t understand:
Why if we are both Spanish (although you Catalonian and me Asturian)..why can´t i be Asturian when i´m in Catalonia? Why do i have to wear a "Catalonian mask" for people to accept me there? Why can´t people just see me as an Asturian and respect that we Asturians don´t speak Catalan? You told me the other day that if i´m to live in Catalonia i should try my best to learn Catalan, because if i don´t, there would come a point when people might stop speaking to me in Castilian (although) they are bilinguals. you said:

"It's only fair and that's what co-official and bilingual means. It doesn't mean I have to be bilingual in Catalonia whilst you would only have to be monolingual. Why do we have to be the only bilinguals if you are to live in our country."

I´m bilingual already...i have my native Asturian and Castilian. We both have a language in common, which is Castilian. But why if i´m not Catalan... why do i have to learn Catalan? Why do i have to learn Catalan as an adult when you´re already bilinguals since children and we both share one of the languages. Catalan is not my language, i respect that you and people around me speak Catalan in Catalonia. I respect that the local authorities take messures to preserve it but Why can´t they just see me as an Asturian and respect it instead of making me "disguise" as catalan to accept me?

"Over 20% of the Spanish population speaks Catalan"
Well, this means that 80% dont speak it, including myself. I can´t understand why i have to speak Catalan there if i´m not Catalan myself and we all know Castilian. It all sounds that if i lived there i´d end up learning Catalan just to avoid being neglected but not because i really wanted to get to know the culture better. This is all about respect, i have the same right to be respected there as not Catalonian, why cant they see me as the Asturian that i am.
Jordi: Catalan, Hispano and Francophony   Thursday, April 21, 2005, 06:15 GMT
Dear Ana:
I agree that languages are more or less difficult, depending on the learner. Yet, written Portuguese, at least, is much closer to Spanish than Catalan and that doesn't make the Portuguese, Spanish. It is not my opinion but the opinion of all Romance-language experts (I happen to have a degree in languages.)

The fact that the most difficult western European language, Basque, is also spoken in Spain and France, would be the best explanation of what I'm saying. Basque on both sides of the border are Basques and, yet, they can either be Spanish or French. The same thing happens with Catalans who can belong to four different independent countries (most of them Spain, but Catalan-speakers can also be Andorran, French or even Italian (l'Alguer or Alghero in Sardinia). One of these places is an independent country and appears in the list of the United Nations; that is why Catalan is also considered a State Language according to international laws. I know some Spaniards and French(it isn't your case, of course) aren't too happy about this international statute but fair is fair.

You say "It´s their language and they have the right to speak it so that it doesn´t get lost."

I wouldn't want to twist your words but that is the big problem in Spain considering linguistic issues "Catalan" is "your" therefore "our language" (I'm Catalan, of course) but it isn't "your language" not even if you decide to move to Catalonia where 75% is bilingual and well over 90% of those born in Catalonia are fluent in Catalan (and Spanish). YOu therefore treat us as a region and that is what most Catalans aren't happy about.

If Castilian Spanish wasn't taught in Catalonia for a couple of generations or three how many people do you think would be fluent in Castilian Spanish by that time? Castilian Spanish has already almost disappeared from the Philipines (since the 1898 independence) and that doesn't make Castilian Spanish less of an international language.

I never learnt a word of Spanish until I was 15 (my parents were anti-Franquist Catalan refugees abroad and never spoke Castilian to me, why should they since the prestigious languages of the countries where I lived till that time were French (France) and English (Australia)? I've always spoken native Catalan, of course.

I learnt Spanish quite quickly when we came back and living in Catalonia with all my relatives and most of my friends being Catalan.

My Catalan wife never learn a word of Spanish until she was 5 and both my teenage children also learnt Spanish outside the home. I can assure you there is no problem whatsoever for me speaking Castilian if I'm in Asturias or Madrid (even with Castilian speakers who politely request me to do so whilst in Barcelona). But why on Earth should I always speak in Castilian with you, just because you're from Asturias and you decide to move to a majority Catalan-speaking town and you decide that I have to speak a language "we share"? For the same reason we could both speak in English since both of us are fluent in that language.

It's still difficult for many Castilian-Spanish speakers to understand that Spain isn't a monolingual country and although we might have a State language (I don't have to agree with that but that is the way things are right now) there are "languages" in Spain which aren't "minority languages" the way that term is understood by sociolinguistics (Catalan isn't a "minority language in its territory). I already put other examples of states where several languages were spoken without there being "one" state language: Switzerland, Belgium, Canada...

The day I can write a letter in Catalan to the Spanish Government in Madrid I will feel much more of a citizen.

Regarding the knowledge of Spanish I feel all future Catalans will be trilingual or even quatrilingual. Spanish is an easy language if you learn it from an early age and English is also necessary and Catalans love to commerce all over the world. Many Catalans also speak French either because they're French or because Catalonia is so near the French border.

I'm sure that if you lived here you'd learn the language because you'd like the locals who speak the language and not because you'd feel "neglected". I've certainly felt "neglected" quite often just because I speak perfect Standard Castilian Spanish with a Catalan accent and don't tell me that doesn't happen because it does and I travel all over Spain speaking in Castilian Spanish in those autonomous regions where it is the only language.

That is the reason somebody should move to another land: to like the people who live there and to show they do so. I haven't met anybody who having done so has been rejected.

I've just seen the morning news and the President of the Catalan Government, Pasqual Maragall (Generalitat de Catalunya) had an interview yesterday with the President of the French Republic. France will put no problem to Catalan being an official language in Europe if Catalonia becomes a member of the Francophony (like Andorra). This will mean that French will also be taught (as a subject) to Catalan children in schools. As you can see we, the Catalan, pretend to be an international nationality (the Spanish constitution already acknowledges we are just that "nacionalidad histórica) speaking several languages without ever forgetting which is the original language of our territory and learning the languages of our closest neighbours.
greg   Thursday, April 21, 2005, 07:42 GMT
Catalunya to join Francophony ? Great honour for Francophones.