Catalan language in danger?

Deborah   Friday, April 22, 2005, 21:33 GMT
DAMIAN, I couldn't tell whether your response to Greg's mention of "E pluribus unum" was dismissive or uncomprehending. So, in case it was the latter, "E pluribus unum" means "Out of one, many". (This motto appears on the Great Seal of the United States, which is the only reason I know what it means.)

If you were merely being dismissive, I apologize for having the temerity to attempt to educate you! :)
Damian   Friday, April 22, 2005, 22:39 GMT
DEBORAH: It was neither dismissive nor uncomprehending...it's just that I expressed myself badly. I was still a wee bit gobsmacked from realising that there was more of a lack of unity than I ever realised before not only within the EU as a whole but even within individual States!

I knew what the Latin phrase meant for sure..I've seen it before but didn't know it was on the Great Seal of the United States. As for any "temerity" on your part...och, awa'wi'ye, lass! What's also for sure is that I would not have the temerity to be dismissive of Greg even though he has a tendency to be dismissive of a certain group of misty islands floating like spare parts off the north west coast of Continental Europe. :-)
JGreco   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 00:32 GMT
I don't understand why the Spanish in Spain are so divided. If you look at the language situation in Italy, Venetian Italian and Calabrian or some of the Northern Italian dialects spoken by the indigenous peoples of those areas are almost mutually unintelligable. Yet, they all share the language of the state of standard Italian and will talk to each other in this dialectical form. I don't here complaints from my Italian friends who are from very different regions of Italy about discorses that have between each other. Some lingust would consider the varying degrees of Italian dialects seperate languages from Standard Italian. There isn't this mistrust and blatant uniculturalism that I see now exists in Spain. All the countries of Latin America share similar cultural staditions and varieties of Spanish but through media and television it united us. We Latn Americans (including Brazilians) don't seem to have such cultural mistrust between our contries.
Roor   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:21 GMT
Latin America is a recent invention. Spain and Catalonia are bitter enemies since time immemorial
Damian   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:41 GMT
**Spain and Catalonia are bitter enemies since time immemorial**

That is really sad to hear. Bitter is not a pleasant word. With the dawn of this "Utopian New Europe" is it not time for a reconciliation? It's amazing how Language can be the source of so much rivalry and...well, bitterness.... as we can see even in this Forum.
Joan   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:43 GMT
The Catalan/Spanish antagonism is more apparent than true in real life, absolutely nothing to do with the Balkans, I can assure you. When trying to make your point in a discussion, as Jordi bravely does, it is but too natural to emphasize your position in order to be undertood. It may seem to an outsider that bloodthirsty antagonisms are being conjured, nothing of the sort. Words are the only means catalans know to defend the few chances we may have to thrive as catalan-speaking people. I can not share I'm afraid, Jordi's blunt optimism concerning the future of our language, actually I can't help realizing we face a bleak perspective. And believe me, it hurts.
andre in south africa   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 11:45 GMT
You're quite right Damian. And all it really takes, is to give each other respect and space.
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 12:14 GMT
Gràcies Joan pels teus mots. Thanks Joan (actually "John" in Catalan) for your words. That is exactly what I feel when I write.
I know it isn't easy for us Catalan-speakers to keep our language when Castilian is such a strong widespread language but I'm sure that history is also made up of little everyday struggles and we still have a long way to go.
Whoever said Spain and Catalonia are bitter enemies since times immemorial doesn't really know what it's all about. That is a false statement.
greg   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 15:05 GMT
Jordi : <pels teus mots> means *<pourles tiens mots> = Fr <pour tes mots> ?
Arnau   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 15:59 GMT
Ibarra: Catalonia can't be called a nation
Juan Carlos Rodríguez Ibarra, Socialist president of Extremadura, said yesterday that he "would never accept (that Catalonia be called a nation) as a consequence of history, because in history, Catalonia was never a nation," after the Catalan Socialist Party declared Monday that it planned to reform the Catalan regional constitution in order to officially denominate Catalonia as a nation. According to Ibarra, officially naming Catalonia a nation would mean that "they are happy with fancy words." As an example, he mentioned some youths' desire to Catalanize their first names "because they're not happy with the ones they have, but this is cured with age, you accept yourself as you are with experience and maturity, it doesn't matter what your name is but what you are." He added that both Catalan and Spanish should be used in Catalonia, since they are the coofficial languages, but he said, "What is not logical is the imposition of Catalan and the forgetting of Spanish, because that would be a brutal mistake




The ineffable leader of the separatist Catalan Republican Left (ERC) party Josep Lluis Carod Rovira interpreted the “No” votes rejecting the European Constitution recorded in Catalonia (28%) as an unmistakable expression of citizen support for ERC –which backed “No”. Its coalition partners in the Catalonian and Spanish governments, the Catalan Socialist Party (PSC) and the Spanish Socialist Workers Party (PSOE) strongly promoted a “Yes” vote. Mr. Carod Rovira even went so far as to claim this support meant Catalan autonomy statute reform would be more than just about “minimums”. One of the new additions to the reform makes knowledge of the Catalan language obligatory for all citizens. This essentially creates a linguistic territory leaving Spanish as a tolerated but unofficial language.
Five “Linguistic Guarantee” offices have already opened in Catalonia. They will respond to questions about the “right to live in Catalan” (or in Aranés in the Valley of Arán). The offices will process accusations and will help subsequent inspections by the appropriate governmental organization: the Linguistic Gestapo. The “Linguist Guarantee” is also charged with offering resources to favor the use of Catalan. In this vein, the offices will consult and provide assistance to businesses “with problems”. The Secretary for Linguistic Policy will head up these offices and in turn answers directly to the Presidency of the Generalitat of Catalonia (the regional government). Indictments can be sent via e-mail, over the telephone, dialing 012, by fax or at the Catalan Language website. Since anyone can bring charges to the Linguistic Guarantee Offices, we guess they have put in place the conditions to assure the Catalan speaking half of the region’s population condemns the other Spanish speaking half. What a wonderful example of successful citizen cohesion.
This is how things stand. On Native Language Day (February 21st), a few hundred Spanish speaking Catalan citizens stood out front of the Linguistic Guarantee office in Barcelona, located at the end of the Ramblas, to turn themselves in, criticize the systematic neglect of the law, demand the right for their children to be educated in their native language and the elimination of these offices.
In a magnificent article in the February 15th edition of the newspaper ABC, César Alonso de los Ríos wrote of certain “unethical and unaesthetic” ERC members who are presented as the paradigm of the genuinely Catalan. He added civil society would have to react if, that is, “there is any civil society left in Catalonia”. 14,000 professors have left Catalonia, quite a large number of highly qualified professionals. The language barrier has made Catalonia unappealing for the rest of Spain. Even former regional president Jordi Pujol had to push an ad campaign that read: Catalonia, your home away from home. Madrid does not have to make such claims. Neither does Andalusia or Murcia or any other autonomous region in Spain. As to the vitality of the Spanish speaking civil society in Catalonia, it has stayed the same since the 1981 Manifesto: conveniently quiet, ignored by the media, capably persecuted and socially quashed. But there is a strong political incentive, obviously non-nationalist, lying in the catacombs, waiting to surface. It is a volcano, a subterranean fire that will explode any day now.
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 16:29 GMT
Greg, yes, that is exactly what it means.
greg   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 16:33 GMT
So there's a *<pourles> = Ca <pels> in Catalan. Is there a ?<pela> for Fr <pour la > ?
Jordi   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 17:30 GMT
Greg:

"pels" is due to phonetic syntax in masculine plural.

per l'home = pour l'homme
pels homes = pour les hommes
per la dona = pour la femme
per les dones = pour les femmes

Pèl/s with an "accent greu" (accent grave) means "hair/s" since "pels" is pronounced with pronounced with an "accent tancat" (accent aigu).

Castilian Spanish doesn't have "opened" and "closed" accents since both "o" and "e" are always closed whilst they can be "opened" or "closed" in Catalan (as in Occitan and French).

Pel (without an accent) is the contraction of the prepostion "per el".

"Ho he fet portar pel jove" (literally, although not quite Standard French it would be: Je l'ai fait porter par le garçon.)

I don't think this is the place to give Catalan classes although it pleases me very much indeed to see your interest, especially considering how angry some seem to get at the mere thought of having to learn the language.
Lazar   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 18:14 GMT
<<"E pluribus unum" means "Out of one, many".>>

Actually it means "Out of many, one".
JGreco   Saturday, April 23, 2005, 18:57 GMT
>>Amau<<

That type of social control on a language is frightening to me. Can you tell me whether as a result of these proposed reforms whether the Spanish speaking populations of Catalonia are starting to rapidly leave becomes they feel un-welcomed in that province. Off subject but I what the average Catalan speaking persons attitude is toward Latin American Spanish speaking countries. If any member of the Catalonian Autonomous gov't have ever sent representatives have ever sent people to Latin America to begin relationships with those governments. Sorry for ranting off subject.