How harsh it does sound?

JJM   Tuesday, May 03, 2005, 13:01 GMT
I'm feeling a bit pedantic today.

"Far worse is the common use of the noun 'loan' as a verb, so perhaps the only way 'lend' will survive modern lack-of-education is to swap places."

Some interesting and very subjective statements here. "Far worse"?
"[M]odern lack-of-education"? Come off it.

You're right - you can't use a noun as a verb. But of course, "loan" ISN'T a noun when you say "loan me your car."

It's a verb.

We've been doing this sort of grammatical function shift with words for centuries in English.
JJM   Tuesday, May 03, 2005, 13:05 GMT
Constructions like "can I have a lend of your pen" are actually quite common:

Can I have a taste of your ice cream?

Can I have a look at your pictures?

Can I have a go at that computer game?

Can I have a try at doing that too?
Frances   Tuesday, May 03, 2005, 13:13 GMT
Why not say "can I have a loan of your pen?"
Damian   Tuesday, May 03, 2005, 15:24 GMT
Would you think it pedantic to use "may" instead of "can"? Strictly speaking the first is correct. Using "can" really means questioning an ability to perform whatever function.
Travis   Tuesday, May 03, 2005, 15:27 GMT
The main thing is that I myself would prefer "may" for literary usages, and also to basically mean "may happen to" or "is allowed to", whereas I'd tend towards "can" in spoken usages, and also to indicate specific ability, rather than possibility or permission, even though in spoken usage today it is used to express both. However, though, in making a request, I would generally use the subjunctive, and hence "could" rather than "can" would be what I'd use.
JJM   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 06:49 GMT
"Would you think it pedantic to use 'may' instead of 'can'? Strictly speaking the first is correct. Using 'can' really means questioning an ability to perform whatever function."

Well, STRICTLY SPEAKING, this perception of the diffference between "may" and "can" has more to do with notions of social etiquette than language.
Lesley   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 08:44 GMT
"But of course, "loan" ISN'T a noun when you say "loan me your car."

Obviously I wouldn't do so.
JJM   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 09:13 GMT
"Obviously I wouldn't do so."

Well bully for you.

But just because you wouldn't, doesn't mean that others shouldn't.
Frances   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 22:51 GMT
JJM and Damian;

I think technically

"Can" - the borrower questioning him-/herself whether (s)he can access the object for lending purposes.

"May" - puts the discretion in the person who owns the object to relinquish the object for lending purposes

"May" is polite and formal and I don't use it unless politeness is required or for literary purposes
Travis   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 22:55 GMT
In speech I would probably myself prefer "could" over "may", when trying to be polite, or even just in general use (when making requests, I generally use "could", not "can"), whereas I would generally use "may" just in written contexts, and then just to indicate possibility, rather than permission..
american nic   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 23:14 GMT
I just had a thought about all this...does it really matter? Even if it sounds like nails on a chalkboard to your ears, as long as you understand someone, hasn't the communication been effective?
Deborah   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 23:22 GMT
I tend to use "may" when social etiquette requires, even with friends, unless I'm in a slurry mood, in which case I say "c'n I."
Frances   Wednesday, May 04, 2005, 23:24 GMT
I don't care which one is used personally but I think use of "may" just seems better English to me because it puts the discretion in object's owner but "can" doesn't.
Travis   Thursday, May 05, 2005, 03:06 GMT
For me, using "may" in speech is a formality, but then, I am times use very formal, to the point of almost archaic, forms in speech, such as "shall", the modal use of "need", and old-style verb negation (for example the use of "have not" (as a main verb), "know not", and so on), but then, I tend to use those for effect more than anything else. In speech, I'd tend towards using "is allowed to" to express permission rather than "may", though.
Adam   Friday, May 06, 2005, 18:05 GMT
"as we know that English was far from formed in the 13th century."

English was very much formed in the 13th century.