How harsh it does sound?

Adam   Friday, May 06, 2005, 18:06 GMT
If English wasn't formed in the 13th century, then what the Hell language did the English speak?
Travis   Friday, May 06, 2005, 18:31 GMT
There was no singular time when English "formed"; if there's any time that you can say such, it is when Old English broke off of what you may call Old Saxon and Old Frisian, but even still, that was a very, very different English from the English dialects we have today. And there was no singular point when Old English definitively became Middle English, Middle English became Early Modern English, or Early Modern English became Modern English; dates like 1066 are relatively arbitrary and are chosen just because they coincide with specific historical events which acts as overall markers and transition points in history.
greg   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:30 GMT
Adam : "English was very much formed in the 13th century".

Well, actually Middle English was being formed in the 13th century.
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:36 GMT
Strange...ever read beowulf?

Its been writtin in 1100 AD,in old english (almost the same as old dutch,except that OD is older)

So claiming that english had been formed in the 13th century....
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:39 GMT
But....would you call this ENGLISH ?

Ða wæs on burgum Beowulf Scyldinga,
leof leodcyning, longe þrage
folcum gefræge (fæder ellor hwearf,
aldor of earde), oþþæt him eft onwoc
heah Healfdene; heold þenden lifde,
gamol ond guðreouw, glæde Scyldingas.
ðæm feower bearn forð gerimed
in worold wocun, weoroda ræswan,
Heorogar ond Hroðgar ond Halga til;
hyrde ic þæt wæs Onelan cwen,
Heaðoscilfingas healsgebedda.
þa wæs Hroðgare heresped gyfen,
wiges weorðmynd, þæt him his winemagas
georne hyrdon, oðð þæt seo geogoð geweox,
magodriht micel. Him on mod bearn
þæt healreced hatan wolde,
medoærn micel, men gewyrcean
þonne yldo bearn æfre gefrunon,
ond þær on innan eall gedælan
geongum ond ealdum, swylc him god sealde,
buton folcscare ond feorum gumena.
ða ic wide gefrægn weorc gebannan
manigre mægþe geond þisne middangeard,
folcstede frætwan. Him on fyrste gelomp,
ædre mid yldum, þæt hit wearð ealgearo,
healærna mæst; scop him Heort naman
se þe his wordes geweald wide hæfde.
He beot ne aleh, beagas dælde,
sinc æt symle. Sele hlifade,
heah ond horngeap, heaðowylma bad,
laðan liges; ne wæs hit lenge þa gen
þæt se ecghete aþumsweorum
æfter wælniðe wæcnan scolde.
ða se ellengæst earfoðlice
þrage geþolode, se þe in þystrum bad,
þæt he dogora gehwam dream gehyrde
hludne in healle; þær wæs hearpan sweg,
swutol sang scopes. Sægde se þe cuþe
frumsceaft fira feorran reccan,
cwæð þæt se ælmihtiga eorðan worhte,
wlitebeorhtne wang, swa wæter bebugeð,
gesette sigehreþig sunnan ond monan
leoman to leohte landbuendum
ond gefrætwade foldan sceatas
leomum ond leafum, lif eac gesceop
cynna gehwylcum þara ðe cwice hwyrfaþ.
Swa ða drihtguman dreamum lifdon
eadiglice, oððæt an ongan
fyrene fremman feond on helle.
Wæs se grimma gæst Grendel haten,
mære mearcstapa, se þe moras heold,
fen ond fæsten; fifelcynnes eard
wonsæli wer weardode hwile,
siþðan him scyppend forscrifen hæfde
in Caines cynne. þone cwealm gewræc
ece drihten, þæs þe he Abel slog;
ne gefeah he þære fæhðe, ac he hine feor forwræc,
metod for þy mane, mancynne fram.
þanon untydras ealle onwocon,
eotenas ond ylfe ond orcneas,
swylce gigantas, þa wið gode wunnon
lange þrage; he him ðæs lean forgeald.
greg   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:41 GMT
I wouldn't call that English : looks like Old English. (don't know the dialect, though)
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:42 GMT
It doesnt only look like old english greg,It is old english! ;)
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:44 GMT
NOW Beowulf bode in the burg of the Scyldings,
leader beloved, and long he ruled
in fame with all folk, since his father had gone
away from the world, till awoke an heir,
haughty Healfdene, who held through life,
sage and sturdy, the Scyldings glad.
Then, one after one, there woke to him,
to the chieftain of clansmen, children four:
Heorogar, then Hrothgar, then Halga brave;
and I heard that -- was --'s queen,
the Heathoscylfing's helpmate dear.
To Hrothgar was given such glory of war,
such honor of combat, that all his kin
obeyed him gladly till great grew his band
of youthful comrades. It came in his mind
to bid his henchmen a hall uprear,
a master mead-house, mightier far
than ever was seen by the sons of earth,
and within it, then, to old and young
he would all allot that the Lord had sent him,
save only the land and the lives of his men.
Wide, I heard, was the work commanded,
for many a tribe this mid-earth round,
to fashion the folkstead. It fell, as he ordered,
in rapid achievement that ready it stood there,
of halls the noblest: Heorot1 he named it
whose message had might in many a land.
Not reckless of promise, the rings he dealt,
treasure at banquet: there towered the hall,
high, gabled wide, the hot surge waiting
of furious flame.2 Nor far was that day
when father and son-in-law stood in feud
for warfare and hatred that woke again.3
With envy and anger an evil spirit
endured the dole in his dark abode,
that he heard each day the din of revel
high in the hall: there harps rang out,
clear song of the singer. He sang who knew4
tales of the early time of man,
how the Almighty made the earth,
fairest fields enfolded by water,
set, triumphant, sun and moon
for a light to lighten the land-dwellers,
and braided bright the breast of earth
with limbs and leaves, made life for all
of mortal beings that breathe and move.
So lived the clansmen in cheer and revel
a winsome life, till one began
to fashion evils, that field of hell.
Grendel this monster grim was called,
march-riever5 mighty, in moorland living,
in fen and fastness; fief of the giants
the hapless wight a while had kept
since the Creator his exile doomed.
On kin of Cain was the killing avenged
by sovran God for slaughtered Abel.
Ill fared his feud,6 and far was he driven,
for the slaughter's sake, from sight of men.
Of Cain awoke all that woful breed,
Ettins7 and elves and evil-spirits,
as well as the giants that warred with God
weary while: but their wage was paid them!
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:46 GMT
Your lucky if you find 5 identical words
Cro Magnon   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:46 GMT
Technically, it IS English. But I'll admit it's far enough from Modern English to be unreadable.
greg   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:52 GMT
Great Sander ! May be I'll get 10.000 words in the next Old English vocabulary test...
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:52 GMT
LOL! really?
greg   Friday, May 06, 2005, 20:59 GMT
Well, if you know any Old Dutch vocabulary test...
Sander   Friday, May 06, 2005, 21:05 GMT
No, do you know one in old french?
greg   Friday, May 06, 2005, 21:12 GMT
The only test worth testing is confrontation with scripta (real old texts).