Jordi, Macedonian and Bulgarian are two languages just like Occitan and Catalan are two languages. That's the type of relationship they have.
Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, on the other hand, are like Spanish in Castille, Mexico and, say, Peru.
...
Personally, I find all kinds of nationalism ridiculous and absolutely unacceptable. I guess urban North America is the ideal place for me to live in, as I daily interact with people from dozens upon dozens of backgrounds and I love every single moment of it.
Europe, East, West, North or South is burdened by its past and its simmering hatreds and rivalries. It's nice to be away from all that crap.
I must say..I like the rivalry between european countries,helps keep you sharp.
I like this little dysfunctional love/hate relationship thing my country (Canada) 's got going with the US. Even though we do at times bitch at each other, at other times we strut hand in hand for the whole village to see what a little couple of lovebirds we are, while making tons of money 24/7.
Now, that's what I call sharp.
Europe is more like... a demented, decrepit old lady with clogged arteries.
<<Europe is more like... a demented, decrepit old lady with clogged arteries.>>
Awww. :-(
Ved:
I will take your word for it and believe you (Macedonian and Bulgarian).
Let me try and be witty although you are a worthy adversary. I assure you it's fully mine:
North America is like a middle aged lady who having had a face lift tries to convince everybody else she is the belle of the debutante's ball. ;-)
And another, since I feel specially witty tonight:
The thing about the daughters of Europe is that they would make you believe they left the evil seed behind and only took their best make-up with them :-)
And to finish:
Regarding hatred and rivalries a couple of oceans on both sides makes America forget what she has done in the rest of the planet without forgetting, of course, a few local episodes, which some newborn Americans would want us believe they never happened.
Then again I don't really believe anything any of the two (you and I) have written regarding ageing continents.
Nah, I am proudlu North American and proudly European.
<<Europe is more like... a demented, decrepit old lady with clogged arteries. >>
And North America is her ambitious, bossy, middle-aged spinster daughter who everyone hates :-P
<<Jordi, Macedonian and Bulgarian are two languages just like Occitan and Catalan are two languages. That's the type of relationship they have. >>
That's not agreed by absolutely everyone so please refrain from being so definitive.
The only ones who do not agree are nationalists in Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia. They hardly qualify as members of the scientific community, eh?
Dear Ved:
Apart from taking your word I've done some checking up. At least it has enabled me to make myself a good opinion (as a linguist) regarding the relationship of Bulgarian and Macedonian. The guy, a member of the scientific community, seems to be quite convinced they are linguistically the same language although politically two different languages. He even feels the relationship between the two varieties should be much bigger than they are now.
Of the several things I've read the following summary pretty much sums up what seems to be an objective opinion from a non Slavic, Macedonian or Bulgarian scholar:
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodlan.html
I will only paste the final sample sentences, which make it very clear they seem to understand each other quite well although I have no idea on different the phonetics are:
Bulgarian: Toj chranese naroda sas slovoto, onzi istinski chljab, kojto ukrepva sarcata, no v sastoto vreme toj ne zabravjase da chrani i telesno onezi, za koito vidja, ce imat nuzda ot takava chrana.
Macedonian: Toj go hranese narodot so slovoto, onoj vistinski leb sto gi ukrepuva srcata, no vo isto vreme toj ne zaboravase da gi hrani i telesno onie sto gledase oti imaat nuzda ot takva hrana.
The two sentences render the same original, which may be translated:
'He nourished the people with the word, that real bread which fortifies the heart, but at the same time he did not forget to nourish also with earthly food those who he realized needed such food'
A literal translation of the Bulgarian: 'He nourished people-the with words-the, that real bread, which fortifies hearts-the, but in same-the time he not forgot that [he] nourishes also physically those, about whom [he] saw, that [they] have need of such food.'
A literal translation of the Macedonian: 'He it nourished people-the with word-the, that real bread that them fortifies hearts-the, but at [the] same time he not forgot that [he] them nourishes also physically those that [he] looked/saw that [they] have need of such food'.
That still seems like two different languages to me. So what, I can understand some Russian too, but it's still not the same language. All Slavic languages are similar, but not the same.
>>I suppose that is what "balcanisation" is all about and it has become a common word in many languages. In Catalan it's "balcanització".<<
I've heard that. It's quite sad, isn't it? LOL :)
Jordi, it is exactly like the Swedish/Norwegian situation, like I've said many times so far. I (not a speaker of either) can also perfectly understand both. However, it doesn't mean that I speak both. They are two standard languages that were born out of different parts of the same dialect continuum. It is not at all strange that they look alike.
I have myself never studied Catalan, but I can read a Catalan newspaper and pretty much understand everything (and, when I don't) just reach for a Catalan dictionary to make sense of the 10% that I don't understand. Still, we're clearly talking two languages here.
...
I once mentioned on this forum that I was once able to join a Bulgarian guided tour of a museum in Greece and that I understood everything the (excellent) Bulgarian guide said. I was even able to ask questions and get answers to them. Needless to say, I asked my questions in Serbian and got answers in Bulgarian.
…
By the way, check this out:
Swedish: 1. Ungefär 24.000 människor dör varje dag av hunger eller hungerrelaterade orsaker. Antalet har minskat från 35.000 för 10 år sedan och 41.000 för 20 år sedan. Tre fjärdedelar av de som dör är barn under fem år.
Norwegian: 1. Omtrent 24 000 mennesker dør hver dag av sult eller sultrelaterte lidelser. Tallet er redusert fra 35 000 for ti år siden, og 41 000 for tjue år siden. Tre fjerdedeler av de som dør er barn under fem år.
Danish: 1. Omkring 24,000 mennesker dør hver dag af sult eller af sultrelaterede årsager. Dette er et fald fra 35,000 for ti år siden og fra 41.000 for tyve år siden. Tre fjerdele af dødsfaldende er børn, der er under fem år gamle.
(1. About 24,000 people die every day from hunger or hunger-related causes. This is down from 35,000 ten years ago, and 41,000 twenty years ago. Three- fourths of the deaths are children under the age of five)
Or (Our Father)
Slovak:
Otče náš, ktorý si na nebesách,
posväť sa meno tvoje;
prid' kráľovstvo tvoje,
bud' vôľa tvoja,
jako na nebi, tak i na zemi.
Chlieb náš vozdajší daj nám dnes,
a otpusť nám naše viny,
jako i my odpúšťame našim vinníkom.
A neuvod' nás v pokušenie,
ale zbav nás od zlého.
Czech:
Otče náš, kterýž jsi v nebesích,
posvéť se jméno tvé;
prijd' království tvé,
bud' vůle tvá,
jako v nebi, tak i na zemi.
Chléb náš vezdejší dej nám dnes,
a otpusť nám naše viny,
jakož i my odpousťíme naším vinníkům.
A ne uvod' nás v pokušení,
ale zbav nás od zlého.
How many languages are there in the first group? One, two or three?
How many languages are there in the second group? One or two?
[I assume the text is not going to display right, but I’ll still try]