Since the independence of Brazil from Portugal, brazilian preachers of hate promoted an alienation of brazilians to all things related with Portugal and the Portuguese. Unfortunately, their preachings have remained alive throughout the centuries to the present. Hate of the portuguese people and their heritage is part of the brazilian national identity. This distancing (not from a geographic point of view) together with the fact that brazilians have more contact with the Spanish speaking countries, has made it possible that their language developed (develops) more and more similar to Spanish.
Are Portuguese and Brazilian the same language?
<<You can disagree with other here. No problem. But you have to remain civilised as everyone here does. You are disqualifying yourself.>>
Well, allow me to disagree again, I don't think everyone here is that civilized. That was just a sound advice for those few people.
Well, allow me to disagree again, I don't think everyone here is that civilized. That was just a sound advice for those few people.
<<Brazils linguistic differences have to do with it not having contact with portugual for centuries, by contrast Angola was a portuguese colony untill 1975, with their language not deviating much at all from the european standard.>>
Yes, centuries and centuries. Brazil is independent since 1822, but D Pedro II was emperor until 1889; he founded many schools and colleges with, of course, Portuguese as the language taught.
(You can read more the emperor here, hope you know Portuguese:
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_do_Brasil )
Either way, the majority of the population was uneducated then (I'm not talking just about Brazil here) and so the language "rights and wrongs" were kept by the nobles and such. It didn't change that much, and when attending school people learned the "proper" way.
<<- Brazil's loss of "Tu'', and the correct associated verb conjugations.
- Brazil's loss of the progressive 'estar a + infinitive' construct - i.e ''estou a fazer".
- Brazilians place pronouns before the verb instead of after - i.e 'eu te amo', instead of 'eu amo-te'.
etc, etc....
Angola does not share any of the above differences that are unique to Brazil, and more importantly the standard phonology in Angola and the rest of lusophone Africa is the European standard.>>
Those are still not morphological examples, right?
Actually Brazilian didn't lose the "tu", it's correctly used at least in the South of the country.
I'm not sure if the "estar a + infinitive" construct is used in Brazil or not, but in European Portuguese just the infinitive is also used. Therefore it's certainly not a feature unique to the Brazilian, and same goes for the pronouns antecipating the verbs, it's used in many situations, just not all the time like in Brazil.
I know the standard phonology in Angola is the same as the standard European phonology, but I'm still saying that their accent is different no matter what.
Check the part about phonology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Portuguese
Yes, centuries and centuries. Brazil is independent since 1822, but D Pedro II was emperor until 1889; he founded many schools and colleges with, of course, Portuguese as the language taught.
(You can read more the emperor here, hope you know Portuguese:
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_II_do_Brasil )
Either way, the majority of the population was uneducated then (I'm not talking just about Brazil here) and so the language "rights and wrongs" were kept by the nobles and such. It didn't change that much, and when attending school people learned the "proper" way.
<<- Brazil's loss of "Tu'', and the correct associated verb conjugations.
- Brazil's loss of the progressive 'estar a + infinitive' construct - i.e ''estou a fazer".
- Brazilians place pronouns before the verb instead of after - i.e 'eu te amo', instead of 'eu amo-te'.
etc, etc....
Angola does not share any of the above differences that are unique to Brazil, and more importantly the standard phonology in Angola and the rest of lusophone Africa is the European standard.>>
Those are still not morphological examples, right?
Actually Brazilian didn't lose the "tu", it's correctly used at least in the South of the country.
I'm not sure if the "estar a + infinitive" construct is used in Brazil or not, but in European Portuguese just the infinitive is also used. Therefore it's certainly not a feature unique to the Brazilian, and same goes for the pronouns antecipating the verbs, it's used in many situations, just not all the time like in Brazil.
I know the standard phonology in Angola is the same as the standard European phonology, but I'm still saying that their accent is different no matter what.
Check the part about phonology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angolan_Portuguese
"Sentences like this are the best proof that brazilians do not speak/understand Portuguese. Furthermore, they seem to be very proud of that."
I understand GOOD speakers and who speak CLEARLY. If Portuguese people learn to pronounce vowels clearly maybe I will understand.
<<Angolan Portuguese, is nearly indistinguishable from peninsular Portuguese (especially the pronunciation). They follow the European standard very closely, and don't speak any "creole"-type derivation. "
Well, I've met people from Angola and Cabo Verde in Brazil and I could understand them perfectly(They weren't speaking in Brazilian Portuguese neither had been influenced by it). It seems that they speak much better than the speakers where the language originated from. I don't really think that there's no difference in the language spoken in Portugal, Angola and Cabo Verde.
By the way, do you REALLY know what a creole means? Your postings show that you don't. Can you define Creole and dialect?
I understand GOOD speakers and who speak CLEARLY. If Portuguese people learn to pronounce vowels clearly maybe I will understand.
<<Angolan Portuguese, is nearly indistinguishable from peninsular Portuguese (especially the pronunciation). They follow the European standard very closely, and don't speak any "creole"-type derivation. "
Well, I've met people from Angola and Cabo Verde in Brazil and I could understand them perfectly(They weren't speaking in Brazilian Portuguese neither had been influenced by it). It seems that they speak much better than the speakers where the language originated from. I don't really think that there's no difference in the language spoken in Portugal, Angola and Cabo Verde.
By the way, do you REALLY know what a creole means? Your postings show that you don't. Can you define Creole and dialect?
"Example of several angolan speakers:
...they have a very similar accent to peninsular portugues”
Similar doesn't mean it's EXACTLY THE SAME. I understood them pretty well with exception of some words. But it's much clearer than CP.
...they have a very similar accent to peninsular portugues”
Similar doesn't mean it's EXACTLY THE SAME. I understood them pretty well with exception of some words. But it's much clearer than CP.
J.C. wrote "...First time I heard a Portuguese person speaking I had to speak in English because I couldn't understand..."
This doesn't mean I don't understand Portuguese people speaking NOW (Of course I still don't understand perfectly. That's so because I still don't meet Portuguese). I'm talking about the time I FIRST met a Portuguese speaking back in 1993, when I had NEVER heard a Portuguese speaking...
This doesn't mean I don't understand Portuguese people speaking NOW (Of course I still don't understand perfectly. That's so because I still don't meet Portuguese). I'm talking about the time I FIRST met a Portuguese speaking back in 1993, when I had NEVER heard a Portuguese speaking...
Thanks for the interesting info ZATSU!!!
"In many ways, compared to Brazilian Portuguese, Angolan Portuguese is very similar. Although Angolans hear a dialect somewhat similar to their own when watching Brazilian soap operas, the population still prefers to learn European Portuguese; and due to the fact that European Portuguese is the preferred pronunciation, it has become a transitional dialect somewhat midway between the European and Brazilian varieties. "
Would someone like to comment on the above information from Wikipedia? Also, based on this information can one say that Angolan Portuguese is closer to CP?
Cheers!!
"In many ways, compared to Brazilian Portuguese, Angolan Portuguese is very similar. Although Angolans hear a dialect somewhat similar to their own when watching Brazilian soap operas, the population still prefers to learn European Portuguese; and due to the fact that European Portuguese is the preferred pronunciation, it has become a transitional dialect somewhat midway between the European and Brazilian varieties. "
Would someone like to comment on the above information from Wikipedia? Also, based on this information can one say that Angolan Portuguese is closer to CP?
Cheers!!
I never even knew Portuguese was spoken in Africa, and I'm not stupid! How come they don't ever mention this fact? Where are all the Portuguese fanatics boasting of all the places it is spoken? If Spanish were spoken in Angola we'd never hear the end of it!
Could people please using a nickname or something? It's difficult to follow when everyone used "guest".
Cheers!!
Cheers!!
Quoting Guest 3 «What?!!! The phonetics of Portuguese spoken in Madeira and The Azores as well as in Algarve is essentially the same as that of Portuguese spoken in other regions of Portugal. On the contrary, the Phonetics of Brazilian Spanish is strongly divergent from Portuguese.»
Good to know that you agree with everything else I wrote. The fact is someone speaking with a strong, interland Azorean, Madeirense or Algarvian accent will hardly be understood by any other speaker of Portuguese, at first (for only a few minutes, until one gets used to the accent). Just like many Brazillians say about Continental Portuguese.
Unless everybody chooses one nickname, conversations will indeed be difficult to follow. Any nickname except "guest", of course.
Good to know that you agree with everything else I wrote. The fact is someone speaking with a strong, interland Azorean, Madeirense or Algarvian accent will hardly be understood by any other speaker of Portuguese, at first (for only a few minutes, until one gets used to the accent). Just like many Brazillians say about Continental Portuguese.
Unless everybody chooses one nickname, conversations will indeed be difficult to follow. Any nickname except "guest", of course.
Here are some other nickname choices, in case a lack of creativity is the reason you aren't using them. Well, I am a poet, so let me help you:
guest
gUest
guEst
gueSt
guesT
guESt
... any other combination of upper/lower case letters
more 'out there' possibilities
Guestt
Guuest
Gguest
Gueest
Guesst
... any other 2 letter combinations
even more extravagant, try a supercombo
guset
geust
ugest (out of this world!)
guets
I hope I inspired you
guest
gUest
guEst
gueSt
guesT
guESt
... any other combination of upper/lower case letters
more 'out there' possibilities
Guestt
Guuest
Gguest
Gueest
Guesst
... any other 2 letter combinations
even more extravagant, try a supercombo
guset
geust
ugest (out of this world!)
guets
I hope I inspired you
J.C. do the Braziliands understand Galician? Here is an example :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWOHkG8w8H4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWOHkG8w8H4&feature=related
<<I understand GOOD speakers and who speak CLEARLY. If Portuguese people learn to pronounce vowels clearly maybe I will understand. >>
<<It seems that they speak much better than the speakers where the language originated from.>>
=O J.C., isn't that a harsh thing to say, to say the least?? I can assure you Portuguese pronounce their vowels! I believe the problem is that EP has more sounds for vowels than for instance BP and so, without previous notice, you wouldn't understand them. But they're certainly pronounced.
In fact, why would everyone else speak "better" than in Portugal, "where the language originated from", and where the most complete, complex and richer version is spoken? Wouldn't it be the other way around?
<<It seems that they speak much better than the speakers where the language originated from.>>
=O J.C., isn't that a harsh thing to say, to say the least?? I can assure you Portuguese pronounce their vowels! I believe the problem is that EP has more sounds for vowels than for instance BP and so, without previous notice, you wouldn't understand them. But they're certainly pronounced.
In fact, why would everyone else speak "better" than in Portugal, "where the language originated from", and where the most complete, complex and richer version is spoken? Wouldn't it be the other way around?
<<I never even knew Portuguese was spoken in Africa, and I'm not stupid! How come they don't ever mention this fact? Where are all the Portuguese fanatics boasting of all the places it is spoken? If Spanish were spoken in Angola we'd never hear the end of it!>>
Who doesn't mention, Portuguese? Well, think Portuguese are not that many and they probably expect people to know their history like that they were the first westerners to arrive on Japan, or that Portuguese named many places and countries like Barbados, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, Senegal...
Many people don't even know where Portugal is, much less the world was once divided in two, lol
Who doesn't mention, Portuguese? Well, think Portuguese are not that many and they probably expect people to know their history like that they were the first westerners to arrive on Japan, or that Portuguese named many places and countries like Barbados, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, Senegal...
Many people don't even know where Portugal is, much less the world was once divided in two, lol