<<To be different is part of the fun! >>
Ok, I can understand and aworth (appreciate) this. Have fun with it then. : )
Ok, I can understand and aworth (appreciate) this. Have fun with it then. : )
German Reform?
Guest Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:21 pm GMT:
>> <<Every language is different form each other, uses other sounds and therefore needs different characters.>>
But ß doesn't represent a different or unique luide (sound). It is pronounced the same as 'ss'. It's just a corrupted and old fashioned form of written "ss".
In English, we don't still spell 'ship' like "fhip"--or 'grass' like "grafs"
The ß just represents a stylization that was once almean (common) but has since expired. Kudos it blove (remained) the longest in German, but it's hightime it was retired. <<
Guest, things are a litttle more complicated that it seems from your position. If you would have followed the link I provided and would have been able to read and to understand the thread it points to, you would understand that it's not as easy as it may seem to you. In fact, it's more than a little more complicated.
You should read thourougly:
>>Every language is different form each other, uses other sounds and therefore needs different characters. There also are different consonant clusters and further effects unknown to speakers of the other languages respectively. For that, special characters are needed.<<
Further effects unkonwn to speakers of the other languages respectively:
The sharp s, the letter ß, serves a variety of purposes. It denotes essentially an unvoiced s. Unvoiced s can also be denoted by double s, in different positions. It serves to denote the end of a syllable or the end of a word (which then is also the end of a syllable). German is a highly compounding language. It also uses lots of endings. Therefore it is convenient to mark these by a special character easily recognizable by its special form. Otherwise, you would get triple s in if you compoud words which after the reform has double s at the end and word beginning with s. This is difficult to read. You may use a hyphen, but thats against the compounding natur of the German language. Today, due to the reform, often the hyphens are omited, alas.
It also has something to do with aesthetics. Double s at the end of a word looks ugly, at least in German. (You may expect that the word goes on, because of double s only comes within a word in classical orthography.) Even greek uses to kinds of s, one at the end of a word, and the other elswhere. In languages like Arabic, you will find different shapes for every letter for stand alone, beginning, middle and end position usage of a letter. So why do you complain about the ß?
I don't understand what you mean by words like almean, kudos, blove. These are no Englisch words, nor are it German. At least no common todays language words in both of theses languages. (I'm not a specialist for Althochdeutsch etc.)
In English I think, words like ship or grass were never spelled the way you write them. There once and still is (see the thread I provided a link to) a character ''long s'' which does resemble the f, but without the bar. There is even a unicode for that long s. In contemporary German, long s isn't used anymore. But it was used a couple of decades ago in Sütterlin writing. It also must have served the convenient readabiltity of the script.
>> <<Every language is different form each other, uses other sounds and therefore needs different characters.>>
But ß doesn't represent a different or unique luide (sound). It is pronounced the same as 'ss'. It's just a corrupted and old fashioned form of written "ss".
In English, we don't still spell 'ship' like "fhip"--or 'grass' like "grafs"
The ß just represents a stylization that was once almean (common) but has since expired. Kudos it blove (remained) the longest in German, but it's hightime it was retired. <<
Guest, things are a litttle more complicated that it seems from your position. If you would have followed the link I provided and would have been able to read and to understand the thread it points to, you would understand that it's not as easy as it may seem to you. In fact, it's more than a little more complicated.
You should read thourougly:
>>Every language is different form each other, uses other sounds and therefore needs different characters. There also are different consonant clusters and further effects unknown to speakers of the other languages respectively. For that, special characters are needed.<<
Further effects unkonwn to speakers of the other languages respectively:
The sharp s, the letter ß, serves a variety of purposes. It denotes essentially an unvoiced s. Unvoiced s can also be denoted by double s, in different positions. It serves to denote the end of a syllable or the end of a word (which then is also the end of a syllable). German is a highly compounding language. It also uses lots of endings. Therefore it is convenient to mark these by a special character easily recognizable by its special form. Otherwise, you would get triple s in if you compoud words which after the reform has double s at the end and word beginning with s. This is difficult to read. You may use a hyphen, but thats against the compounding natur of the German language. Today, due to the reform, often the hyphens are omited, alas.
It also has something to do with aesthetics. Double s at the end of a word looks ugly, at least in German. (You may expect that the word goes on, because of double s only comes within a word in classical orthography.) Even greek uses to kinds of s, one at the end of a word, and the other elswhere. In languages like Arabic, you will find different shapes for every letter for stand alone, beginning, middle and end position usage of a letter. So why do you complain about the ß?
I don't understand what you mean by words like almean, kudos, blove. These are no Englisch words, nor are it German. At least no common todays language words in both of theses languages. (I'm not a specialist for Althochdeutsch etc.)
In English I think, words like ship or grass were never spelled the way you write them. There once and still is (see the thread I provided a link to) a character ''long s'' which does resemble the f, but without the bar. There is even a unicode for that long s. In contemporary German, long s isn't used anymore. But it was used a couple of decades ago in Sütterlin writing. It also must have served the convenient readabiltity of the script.
<< guest2 Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:34 pm GMT
Guest Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:17 am GMT:
<<Ich hasse ß. Ich finde ss schöner und praktischer.
I hate ß. I find ss nicer and more practical. >>
You're probably no native speaker!
Hating a letter? Where will that end up? By using capital and square-edged ss? By adopting the associated ideology? By going back to WW2 in time?
Guest Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:44 am GMT :
<<Mir würde es überhapt nichts ausmachen wenn der Buchstabe ß abgeschafft wäre.
I wouldn't mind if ß was abolished. >>
Of course, as you're probably no native speaker, it wouldn't mind you!
But others would mind! >>
I am a native speaker.
Guest Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:17 am GMT:
<<Ich hasse ß. Ich finde ss schöner und praktischer.
I hate ß. I find ss nicer and more practical. >>
You're probably no native speaker!
Hating a letter? Where will that end up? By using capital and square-edged ss? By adopting the associated ideology? By going back to WW2 in time?
Guest Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:44 am GMT :
<<Mir würde es überhapt nichts ausmachen wenn der Buchstabe ß abgeschafft wäre.
I wouldn't mind if ß was abolished. >>
Of course, as you're probably no native speaker, it wouldn't mind you!
But others would mind! >>
I am a native speaker.
<<I don't understand what you mean by words like almean, kudos, blove. These are no Englisch words, nor are it German. At least no common todays language words in both of theses languages. (I'm not a specialist for Althochdeutsch etc.) >>
almean = common
kudos = honor, glory, acclaim
blove = preterite of blive = to stay, remain
luide = sound
'f' = ƒ/ʃ --these woned to be noten at the end of a word, like sharp s
woned to = used to
noten = used
almean = common
kudos = honor, glory, acclaim
blove = preterite of blive = to stay, remain
luide = sound
'f' = ƒ/ʃ --these woned to be noten at the end of a word, like sharp s
woned to = used to
noten = used
http://www.sprachforschung.org/index.php?show=news&id=592#6946
''In der Fraktur steht dann auch Rund-S vor Lang-S, während das (echte) Doppel-S mit Lang-S vor Rund-S oder mit zwei Lang-S gebildet wird.''
In fractur script, there is round s before long s, but the (proper) double s is built up with long s before round s or with two long s.
Alas, my browser doesn't show the second character.
Obviously, you have some knowledge of an elder form of English or german, so why do you confuse f with long s?
''In der Fraktur steht dann auch Rund-S vor Lang-S, während das (echte) Doppel-S mit Lang-S vor Rund-S oder mit zwei Lang-S gebildet wird.''
In fractur script, there is round s before long s, but the (proper) double s is built up with long s before round s or with two long s.
Alas, my browser doesn't show the second character.
Obviously, you have some knowledge of an elder form of English or german, so why do you confuse f with long s?
Yes, I hate, too! But I hate people who did me harm, insulted me, etc! Yes, I know, this is sin, you shouldn't hate people. But it's quite normal, quite natural, whereas religion is ''supernatural'' or insane!
But I don't hate letters. They did me no harm.
If someone beat you, insulted you, and you come up to another saying what has happened and that you hate the one insulted and beat you, that would be understood by most of the people. Because it's normal, because everyone can understand.
But, in normal life, outside being hidden behind a nickname in the internet, if you would come up with ''I hate that letter'', everyone would consider you insane. What harm can a little shape of ink do to you?
But I don't hate letters. They did me no harm.
If someone beat you, insulted you, and you come up to another saying what has happened and that you hate the one insulted and beat you, that would be understood by most of the people. Because it's normal, because everyone can understand.
But, in normal life, outside being hidden behind a nickname in the internet, if you would come up with ''I hate that letter'', everyone would consider you insane. What harm can a little shape of ink do to you?
<<But ß doesn't represent a different or unique luide (sound). It is pronounced the same as 'ss'. It's just a corrupted and old fashioned form of written "ss". >>
No!
How can a letter as wonderful as ß be ''corrupted''? And how can a letter so young as the ß be old fashioned? It must be one of the youngest letters at all. The ordinary letters are much older!
In English, there is f and ph. How do you pronounce ''phonology''?
In German, there is v, f and ph pronounced the same.
Have you ever heard of allophones, allomorphs and allographs? These are quite common.
In German, there is i and ie. As a child, you often write ''dier'' instead of 'dir'. I never heard that this word ever was to be reformed. It seems to me, that the german orthographic deformers have arbitrarily choosen a letter to be eradicated and replaced for having an evident sign for the subjection of the people to their new reglementations. In fact, many people just use ss (because the rest of the reform is too much and to confuse to learn) and write classic style otherwise.
No!
How can a letter as wonderful as ß be ''corrupted''? And how can a letter so young as the ß be old fashioned? It must be one of the youngest letters at all. The ordinary letters are much older!
In English, there is f and ph. How do you pronounce ''phonology''?
In German, there is v, f and ph pronounced the same.
Have you ever heard of allophones, allomorphs and allographs? These are quite common.
In German, there is i and ie. As a child, you often write ''dier'' instead of 'dir'. I never heard that this word ever was to be reformed. It seems to me, that the german orthographic deformers have arbitrarily choosen a letter to be eradicated and replaced for having an evident sign for the subjection of the people to their new reglementations. In fact, many people just use ss (because the rest of the reform is too much and to confuse to learn) and write classic style otherwise.
Some old people still use ß.
I read that it originated from S+Z.
I'm in favour of eradicating ß and replace it with ss or sz, although the latter is quite unlikely.
I read that it originated from S+Z.
I'm in favour of eradicating ß and replace it with ss or sz, although the latter is quite unlikely.
<<I read that it originated from S+Z. >>
The letter actually originates from two distinct ligatures (depending on word and spelling rules): long s with round s ("ſs") and long s with (round) z ("ſz"/"ſʒ").
("ſs") over time "corrupted" into > ß, which is why I don't understand why leed (people) are so up in arms against the spaling (substitution) of ß with 'ss'--that's what it really is to begin with.
The letter actually originates from two distinct ligatures (depending on word and spelling rules): long s with round s ("ſs") and long s with (round) z ("ſz"/"ſʒ").
("ſs") over time "corrupted" into > ß, which is why I don't understand why leed (people) are so up in arms against the spaling (substitution) of ß with 'ss'--that's what it really is to begin with.
Because this would be devolution! (Evolution backwards) Evolution goes forword, not backward. I biology, there is a law that say that there is no ''backwards evolution'' because it is impossible that the evolutionary factors which would ''reform'' the ancient status can be applied in reverse order exactly.
What you call ''corruption'' (a very ugly word, indeed), is real evolution.
What you call ''corruption'' (a very ugly word, indeed), is real evolution.
You can see it that way: A new letter developed from two other letters. It still denotes the sound quality of the combination of letters it originated, but has additional properties, which lie in the graphical domain and which are highly required in a compounding language like german. Remember: Script is there for to be read, in the first place, and for to be pronounced in the second place. That means, you first must read a word, text, etc. before you can pronounce it. Therefore the ß is very helpful for reading and understanding in the first place and still very useful for saying out loud what one has read. It also saves space, ink and efford -- you need only one letter not two!
guest2, if you want to keep on using ß, bitte schön. It just looks old.
<<Some old people still use ß.>>
That's because it IS still in use. Surprise, surprise!!
That's because it IS still in use. Surprise, surprise!!