English, German, & Dutch part 2

jo   Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:00 pm GMT
You?
Buddy   Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:40 pm GMT
Even where words are similar between all three, Dutch seems to share more similarity with the English forms than with German

German: Länge
English: length (with dental suffix)
Dutch: lengte

German: Donner
English: thunder (with dental infix)
Dutch: donder

German: weiter
English: farther
Dutch: ferder

German: neu
English: new
Dutch: nieuw

German: nun
English: now
Dutch: nu (Afrikaans: nou)

German: Schatte
English: shadow
Dutch: schaduw

German: dritte
English: third
Dutch: derde
van der Vaart   Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:06 pm GMT
Here Dutch and German are even to a blind man more similar to each other:

German: nun
English: now
Dutch: nu

It's not ferder but verder in Dutch! There you go:

German: weiter
English: farther
Dutch: wijders

There are thousands of German and Dutch cognates where English even lacks one.
Jesse   Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:01 pm GMT
<<There are thousands of German and Dutch cognates where English even lacks one. >>

You sound like a German sympathizer Mr Faart- oops, I mean Vaart. Or shall I say Herr Fahrt!

Dutch is a dialect of English, and vice versa
PARISIEN   Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:31 am GMT
"German: weiter
English: farther "

German cognate to "farther" is "ferner".

German "weit[er]", strangely, is a cognate of "with".
The original meaning of the word was something like "again", "against" (Ger. "wieder" and "wider") but evolved in opposite directions to denote distance in German (cf. Eng. "wide"), and close association with Eng. "with".

(Original meaning is preserved in "to withstand", which matches Ger. "widerstehen", "Widerstand")

Note that in Swedish, 'vid' means 'close to', 'nearby', but the comparative 'vidare' means "continuously" and/or "farther" like in German.
Jesse   Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:11 am GMT
<<German "weit[er]", strangely, is a cognate of "with".
The original meaning of the word was something like "again", "against" (Ger. "wieder" and "wider") but evolved in opposite directions to denote distance in German (cf. Eng. "wide"), and close association with Eng. "with". >>

I agree that German "weit" is cognate with English "wide"; but these words--though distantly related to the "with"/"wider, wieder" group at the PIE level--represent a closer connection within the Germanic subgroup on their own.

"weit" and "wide" are immediately related to Latin "videre" (to separate/divide); as well as to "widow"/"Witwe" [Latin "vidua"] (i.e. "one who has been seperated [from a spouse]")
PARISIEN   Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:21 am GMT
<< "weit" and "wide" are immediately related to Latin "videre" (to separate/divide); as well as to "widow"/"Witwe" [Latin "vidua"] (i.e. "one who has been seperated [from a spouse]") >>

-- Wow. I had never thought of that.

So, 'widow' / 'vidua' are related to 'video / videre?'
That makes sense. 'To divide' is to separate, to distinguish, to discriminate by sight.

Merci Jesse!
Jesse   Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:53 am GMT
"video" comes from Latin vidére - to see from PIE *weid- "to know, to see" related to English "wit"/"wot"; "wise"

"divide" comes from dī + -videre - to separate from PIE *widh- "to separate"

I don't think there's a connection between the two "videre"s despite the Latin togetherfalling of forms
Romina   Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:44 am GMT
German and Dutch are like dizygotic twins. English is so far apart that most people react astonished when they hear that English belongs to the same language group.
Leasnam   Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:29 pm GMT
<<German and Dutch are like dizygotic twins. English is so far apart that most people react astonished when they hear that English belongs to the same language group. >>

A reaction is nothing more than a person's response to information combined with previous information.

If either information is inaccurate, you will elicit a certain response.

Therefore, reactions do not determine linguistic relationships.

What I would say in regards to those reactions is that those individuals didn't really know much to begin with...

btw, English is closer to Dutch and also to German, than either Icelandic or faroese are to Dutch and German. See?
eastlander   Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:53 pm GMT
Low German(descendant of Low Middle Saxon) has more similarities with English,than Dutch.Low German and Dutch both are descendants of Middle Low German language (This language had two groups of dialects-Middle Low Saxon and Middle Low Franconian).
PARISIEN   Wed Dec 03, 2008 3:59 pm GMT
<< "video" comes from Latin vidére - to see from PIE *weid- "to know, to see" related to English "wit"/"wot"; "wise"
"divide" comes from dī + -videre - to separate from PIE *widh- "to separate"
I don't think there's a connection between the two "videre"s despite the Latin togetherfalling of forms >>

-- Oops, thanks.
"the Latin togetherfalling of forms " is indeed impressive ('vision', 'division') but misleading. So, 'video' is rather related to the Germanic world for 'to know': Ger. 'wissen', Nl. 'weten', Sv. 'veta' etc.


<< German and Dutch are like dizygotic twins >>

-- Dutch is somewhere between English and German, but a thousand times closer to German than to English.

There are however a few Germanic words that happen to exist in both English and Dutch with the same meaning but not in German. An instance I'm just thinking is 'to choose' and 'choice' (*), related to Dutch. 'kiezen', 'keuze' while German and Scandinavian languages use 'wählen' and 'Wahl', 'vala' and 'val' etc.

(*) the latter being transferred from continental Germanic to English through French, I know.
forum ruler   Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:46 pm GMT
"Therefore, reactions do not determine linguistic relationships."

Of course not. Wishful thinking also doesn't determine linguistic relationship.
Shlaive   Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:01 pm GMT
What the hell is a 'togetherfalling'?
PARISIEN   Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:49 pm GMT
<< What the hell is a 'togetherfalling'? >>

It's a wonderful and strongly expressive word for 'converging'.
My dictionaries ignore it, Google too.
Jesse just coined it perhaps.
We shall remember it and use it whenever useful. :-)