Long live J.C.!
Is the German language underestimated?
To: Guest Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:37 pm GMT
Thanks but I don't deserve so much!! I just love languages and communication :D
Thanks but I don't deserve so much!! I just love languages and communication :D
<<I don't know how many German speakers you met and how good they spoke English but that doesn't mean that ALL Germans speak English and you could lose opportunities of meeting amazing people just because you don't know the local language.>>
Most of the Germans who don't know English are over 60. If you're an old-timer who likes a good knitting session, by all means learn German. But you'll be hard pressed to find someone under 30 who doesn't know English. If 50% of people over 60 speak English, then surely that number must increase to at least 90% for people under 30.
Most of the Germans who don't know English are over 60. If you're an old-timer who likes a good knitting session, by all means learn German. But you'll be hard pressed to find someone under 30 who doesn't know English. If 50% of people over 60 speak English, then surely that number must increase to at least 90% for people under 30.
"their special educator was called the "francisca."
-- Just a cheap pun. The 'Franciska' was the Franks' battle axe.
"From what I have been able to piece together from the information on the internet, The German language comes from the land of the Franks. "
-- Yes and no. In the beginning they weren't one nation but a federation of warriors from various tribes (a very successful federation!) along the Rhine valley, up to modern day Holland. About 1500 years ago they destroyed the last remnants of Roman authority in northern Gaul and made this country their own, which was consequently renamed 'France'.
From there they conquered the rest of Gaul, destroyed the competing Germanic federations all around (Wisigoths, Allamans, Lombards, Saxons), and extended their empire to all of France, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, half of Italy, and even a part of Spain.
"from the information on the internet, The German language comes from the land of the Franks"
-- From the above you can conclude that a pretty rich cluster of tongues originate from the Frankish empire: German, French, Dutch, Catalan, even Italian.
"there seems to be a question of where the word "Frank" comes from?"
-- In lots of European languages, including English, the words "Frank / Franc / Franco" have got mutually associated meanings like "free" and "sincere" as a reminder from the time when the Franks were an elite of warriors who didn't have to pay any tax (otherwise Mr taxman could get into big trouble)
Keep in mind that the Franks were initially a federation of warriors (not necessarily Germanic BTW). Over time, with tribes coalescing, the denominations 'Frank' and 'Frankish' ended up to apply to real nations with their particular dialects on German territory, Rhine-Frankish in the Rhineland region and Franconian in Franconia (Frankenland), but also to non-or-poorly-related dialects in Flanders.
Very complicated story, extremely fascinating story.
"Are their French people here who know German, and if so, what do you think? "
-- I use German everyday for my job.
Yep, I think that German is hugely underrated, it's a shame.
If you ask me, I'd say that it's more essential than English for understanding the genesis of the modern world. As much or even more than French.
-- Just a cheap pun. The 'Franciska' was the Franks' battle axe.
"From what I have been able to piece together from the information on the internet, The German language comes from the land of the Franks. "
-- Yes and no. In the beginning they weren't one nation but a federation of warriors from various tribes (a very successful federation!) along the Rhine valley, up to modern day Holland. About 1500 years ago they destroyed the last remnants of Roman authority in northern Gaul and made this country their own, which was consequently renamed 'France'.
From there they conquered the rest of Gaul, destroyed the competing Germanic federations all around (Wisigoths, Allamans, Lombards, Saxons), and extended their empire to all of France, Switzerland, Austria, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, half of Italy, and even a part of Spain.
"from the information on the internet, The German language comes from the land of the Franks"
-- From the above you can conclude that a pretty rich cluster of tongues originate from the Frankish empire: German, French, Dutch, Catalan, even Italian.
"there seems to be a question of where the word "Frank" comes from?"
-- In lots of European languages, including English, the words "Frank / Franc / Franco" have got mutually associated meanings like "free" and "sincere" as a reminder from the time when the Franks were an elite of warriors who didn't have to pay any tax (otherwise Mr taxman could get into big trouble)
Keep in mind that the Franks were initially a federation of warriors (not necessarily Germanic BTW). Over time, with tribes coalescing, the denominations 'Frank' and 'Frankish' ended up to apply to real nations with their particular dialects on German territory, Rhine-Frankish in the Rhineland region and Franconian in Franconia (Frankenland), but also to non-or-poorly-related dialects in Flanders.
Very complicated story, extremely fascinating story.
"Are their French people here who know German, and if so, what do you think? "
-- I use German everyday for my job.
Yep, I think that German is hugely underrated, it's a shame.
If you ask me, I'd say that it's more essential than English for understanding the genesis of the modern world. As much or even more than French.
"Most of the Germans who don't know English are over 60. If you're an old-timer who likes a good knitting session, by all means learn German. But you'll be hard pressed to find someone under 30 who doesn't know English."
Slobodan:
Wow, I didn't know that so many Germans speak English "fluently". Even so, I wouldn't waste my time speaking English with someone whose language I can speak decently.
I would really love to talk to some elders in Germany in order to learn things that people in their 30s don't know (I've learned a lot reading "Nicht alle waren Mörder" from Michael Degen, who experienced WW2 and I bet he doesn't speak English) in addition to some good dialect. It would be cool to learn Bayrisch, Allemanisch, Pfälzich and other regional variations of German.
Sorry to say but you don't know what you're missing!!!
Cheers!!
Slobodan:
Wow, I didn't know that so many Germans speak English "fluently". Even so, I wouldn't waste my time speaking English with someone whose language I can speak decently.
I would really love to talk to some elders in Germany in order to learn things that people in their 30s don't know (I've learned a lot reading "Nicht alle waren Mörder" from Michael Degen, who experienced WW2 and I bet he doesn't speak English) in addition to some good dialect. It would be cool to learn Bayrisch, Allemanisch, Pfälzich and other regional variations of German.
Sorry to say but you don't know what you're missing!!!
Cheers!!
<<Wow, I didn't know that so many Germans speak English "fluently". Even so, I wouldn't waste my time speaking English with someone whose language I can speak decently.
I would really love to talk to some elders in Germany in order to learn things that people in their 30s don't know (I've learned a lot reading "Nicht alle waren Mörder" from Michael Degen, who experienced WW2 and I bet he doesn't speak English) in addition to some good dialect. It would be cool to learn Bayrisch, Allemanisch, Pfälzich and other regional variations of German.
Sorry to say but you don't know what you're missing!!! >>
If you're going to live there for a long time or if you have a strong interest in Germany, then ok learn German. But I don't think there is anyone on Earth who would learn a language just for a few travels or to have a few conversations with war veterans. It's about priorities. I might be missing out on those great conversations, but by the same token you are missing out on some awesome conversations with the Hiri Motu speaking tribes of Papua New Guinea simply because you don't speak Hiri Motu. German only is useful in a limit sphere of areas that may be of personal interest, but German is not useful in an international sense, and can easily be avoided by using English.
I would really love to talk to some elders in Germany in order to learn things that people in their 30s don't know (I've learned a lot reading "Nicht alle waren Mörder" from Michael Degen, who experienced WW2 and I bet he doesn't speak English) in addition to some good dialect. It would be cool to learn Bayrisch, Allemanisch, Pfälzich and other regional variations of German.
Sorry to say but you don't know what you're missing!!! >>
If you're going to live there for a long time or if you have a strong interest in Germany, then ok learn German. But I don't think there is anyone on Earth who would learn a language just for a few travels or to have a few conversations with war veterans. It's about priorities. I might be missing out on those great conversations, but by the same token you are missing out on some awesome conversations with the Hiri Motu speaking tribes of Papua New Guinea simply because you don't speak Hiri Motu. German only is useful in a limit sphere of areas that may be of personal interest, but German is not useful in an international sense, and can easily be avoided by using English.
" I don't think there is anyone on Earth who would learn a language just for a few travels or to have a few conversations with war veterans."
Plein de gens apprennent l'anglais juste pour ça.
Y aurait-il d'autres raisons de le faire ?
Plein de gens apprennent l'anglais juste pour ça.
Y aurait-il d'autres raisons de le faire ?
Slobodan: Zdravo!!!
"But I don't think there is anyone on Earth who would learn a language just for a few travels or to have a few conversations with war veterans. "
I don't expect everybody to read Goethe in the original but learning some greetings never killed anyone!! :D
Either way, I think that learning another language will never be a burden intellectually speaking and will surely differentiate one person who only knows English or has only English as a foreign language. Who's going to talk about the war? Well, if the person I talk to is willing to share his/her knowledge about any subject from which I can benefit why not to hear it and learn?
"It's about priorities. I might be missing out on those great conversations, but by the same token you are missing out on some awesome conversations with the Hiri Motu speaking tribes of Papua New Guinea simply because you don't speak Hiri Motu. "
You're right about the priorities, which,in my case, were to use German at a professional level and opened the door for my first job.
Comparing a somewhat monolingual(I don't know about other minorities other than the Turks using their language) Germany with such a multilingual country like Papa New Guinea is a little off range but that's the spirit. I would lose some amazing conversations with the locals. However, when it comes to German, which is the language of the 3rd most developed country in the world, I believe that the fluency in German would help you do more things."
"German only is useful in a limit sphere of areas that may be of personal interest, but German is not useful in an international sense, and can easily be avoided by using English. "
Your speech might be true in the realm of business, research (depending on the field of course. Maybe knowing German would be nice for someone with a degree in chemistry) and travel, where English is the international language with certain limitations. For instance, when I went to busan (Southern Korea) and stayed at a 3 stars hotel, there was nobody who spoke English and so was the case when I travelled to Cheju island. (The words that help me getting a ride were "there's no bus. is it ok?" in Korean)
But the best example for me is Japan, where the presence of English is irrelevant even though it's the 2nd richest nation in the world (English was also irrelevant in Korea, where I found more people who spoke Japanese, specially the elders who lived during the Japanese occupation)
On the other hand, if you travel to Southern Brazil German would be more useful than English since there are many people who descend on Germans and speak some German. As you can see German can be more useful than English or as useless as English depending on the area.
Cheers!!
"But I don't think there is anyone on Earth who would learn a language just for a few travels or to have a few conversations with war veterans. "
I don't expect everybody to read Goethe in the original but learning some greetings never killed anyone!! :D
Either way, I think that learning another language will never be a burden intellectually speaking and will surely differentiate one person who only knows English or has only English as a foreign language. Who's going to talk about the war? Well, if the person I talk to is willing to share his/her knowledge about any subject from which I can benefit why not to hear it and learn?
"It's about priorities. I might be missing out on those great conversations, but by the same token you are missing out on some awesome conversations with the Hiri Motu speaking tribes of Papua New Guinea simply because you don't speak Hiri Motu. "
You're right about the priorities, which,in my case, were to use German at a professional level and opened the door for my first job.
Comparing a somewhat monolingual(I don't know about other minorities other than the Turks using their language) Germany with such a multilingual country like Papa New Guinea is a little off range but that's the spirit. I would lose some amazing conversations with the locals. However, when it comes to German, which is the language of the 3rd most developed country in the world, I believe that the fluency in German would help you do more things."
"German only is useful in a limit sphere of areas that may be of personal interest, but German is not useful in an international sense, and can easily be avoided by using English. "
Your speech might be true in the realm of business, research (depending on the field of course. Maybe knowing German would be nice for someone with a degree in chemistry) and travel, where English is the international language with certain limitations. For instance, when I went to busan (Southern Korea) and stayed at a 3 stars hotel, there was nobody who spoke English and so was the case when I travelled to Cheju island. (The words that help me getting a ride were "there's no bus. is it ok?" in Korean)
But the best example for me is Japan, where the presence of English is irrelevant even though it's the 2nd richest nation in the world (English was also irrelevant in Korea, where I found more people who spoke Japanese, specially the elders who lived during the Japanese occupation)
On the other hand, if you travel to Southern Brazil German would be more useful than English since there are many people who descend on Germans and speak some German. As you can see German can be more useful than English or as useless as English depending on the area.
Cheers!!
>>The only thing missing is the world 'official'.
It'd then be a joke to see Hong Kong still brands it as official and fully supports "biliteracy and trilingualism", when not everybody (like me) is actually fully bi/trilingual - depending on whether you count Chinese as one or two. It's more like a political slogan, but far less a practical, realistic linguistic goal for Hongkongers, when I see quite a few of my counterparts still can't hold a decent Mandarin conversation at all - rather than having an accent, they just try to do something like, with them being Dutch-speaking, putting English-like words in Dutch to make themselves sound like speaking English.
But thanks to the rise of China, at least those of my generation would still cling on the same dilemma with both English and Mandarin, both of which they can't speak decently anyway, and Hong Kong wouldn't be Anglophone. That might add a bit of linguistic pride for the linguistically sensitive "patriots" there... after all, with "generic Chinese" being so much established as part of our thinking, culture, ethnicity, nation, etc, no matter how easy English letters look like, compared to ours, they're still foreign.
>>Most of the Germans who don't know English are over 60. If you're an old-timer who likes a good knitting session, by all means learn German. But you'll be hard pressed to find someone under 30 who doesn't know English. If 50% of people over 60 speak English, then surely that number must increase to at least 90% for people under 30.
The same for Hong Kong. But I suspect everyone has a bit of linguistic ...isms in oneself. My argument is that Hong Kong is officially (as a slogan) and de facto (every year they produce ten thousands of university graduates, and everyone has already been brainwashed by the English the government teaches) bilingual in many senses, but I can assure you, everybody switches back to Cantonese after the foreign professor/teacher, etc, leaves, and they manages their studies/work, whatever, with the old Chinese tricks. Highly educated foreigners/those with high social status here can get by without EVER knowing Chinese, and in reality they're always treated differently anyway. We all maintain a kind of secret code behind their back, and if you don't try to know this, you're completely out of the game, and you won't know how to live in a completely Chinese environment.
I don't mean they'll attack you or do something nasty, it just means that, in a completely different culture (rather than Dutch, which is European too), you can get by as a scholar, a medical doctor, an official, etc, without having any opportunity of social integration.
With so much exposure of "foreigners" as people, many Hongkongers, perhaps unlike their inquisitive mainland counterparts, may well be "libertarian" in their social outlook, as related to meeting foreigners (typically, westerners and visitors from the east, namely Korea and Japan). If you don't know Cantonese well enough (well, this happens to 99% of the foreigners I met), then you're simply out the game to deal with them, becoz they may understand you as a non-permanent resident (that you'll leave soon) and won't be in a position (Hongkongers can be Chinese as well as British, when they have to be diplomatic) to help you with specific social needs.
So, even a "relatively useless language" like mine could be of immense importance in such a tiny city of 7 millions. I couldn't imagine Dutch should be an "oh, that's just ok, why don't you just English instead"-type language even in its motherland, which is after all a large country (40 times bigger than HK, more than 2 times its population, and as a sovereign country).
It'd then be a joke to see Hong Kong still brands it as official and fully supports "biliteracy and trilingualism", when not everybody (like me) is actually fully bi/trilingual - depending on whether you count Chinese as one or two. It's more like a political slogan, but far less a practical, realistic linguistic goal for Hongkongers, when I see quite a few of my counterparts still can't hold a decent Mandarin conversation at all - rather than having an accent, they just try to do something like, with them being Dutch-speaking, putting English-like words in Dutch to make themselves sound like speaking English.
But thanks to the rise of China, at least those of my generation would still cling on the same dilemma with both English and Mandarin, both of which they can't speak decently anyway, and Hong Kong wouldn't be Anglophone. That might add a bit of linguistic pride for the linguistically sensitive "patriots" there... after all, with "generic Chinese" being so much established as part of our thinking, culture, ethnicity, nation, etc, no matter how easy English letters look like, compared to ours, they're still foreign.
>>Most of the Germans who don't know English are over 60. If you're an old-timer who likes a good knitting session, by all means learn German. But you'll be hard pressed to find someone under 30 who doesn't know English. If 50% of people over 60 speak English, then surely that number must increase to at least 90% for people under 30.
The same for Hong Kong. But I suspect everyone has a bit of linguistic ...isms in oneself. My argument is that Hong Kong is officially (as a slogan) and de facto (every year they produce ten thousands of university graduates, and everyone has already been brainwashed by the English the government teaches) bilingual in many senses, but I can assure you, everybody switches back to Cantonese after the foreign professor/teacher, etc, leaves, and they manages their studies/work, whatever, with the old Chinese tricks. Highly educated foreigners/those with high social status here can get by without EVER knowing Chinese, and in reality they're always treated differently anyway. We all maintain a kind of secret code behind their back, and if you don't try to know this, you're completely out of the game, and you won't know how to live in a completely Chinese environment.
I don't mean they'll attack you or do something nasty, it just means that, in a completely different culture (rather than Dutch, which is European too), you can get by as a scholar, a medical doctor, an official, etc, without having any opportunity of social integration.
With so much exposure of "foreigners" as people, many Hongkongers, perhaps unlike their inquisitive mainland counterparts, may well be "libertarian" in their social outlook, as related to meeting foreigners (typically, westerners and visitors from the east, namely Korea and Japan). If you don't know Cantonese well enough (well, this happens to 99% of the foreigners I met), then you're simply out the game to deal with them, becoz they may understand you as a non-permanent resident (that you'll leave soon) and won't be in a position (Hongkongers can be Chinese as well as British, when they have to be diplomatic) to help you with specific social needs.
So, even a "relatively useless language" like mine could be of immense importance in such a tiny city of 7 millions. I couldn't imagine Dutch should be an "oh, that's just ok, why don't you just English instead"-type language even in its motherland, which is after all a large country (40 times bigger than HK, more than 2 times its population, and as a sovereign country).
JC: That was certainly a very detailed testimonial of your German. That's very impressive!
>>Last but not least, my reference books for vocabulary and grammar are:
1) Langenscheidts Großwörtenbuch (Deutsch als Fremdsprache)
2) Duden (4th band out of 12): Die Grammatik
If I can really go to Germany in April next year, I'd definitely want to buy 1) above... perhaps along with some Assimil books auf Deutsch, if possible. A handy German-German dictionary (paper) is definitely a must.... I still don't have one. I can't learn anything now, but I do have the idea of struggling towards going monolingual at my stage. I started German much later than you did, and I'm in the dilemma (as always) of having to deal with multiple tongues.
My situation: 15 years of English (well, only the last 2 were effective only with self-study), sporadic listening comprehension and writing practice for Mandarin. No effective foreign exposure, no "permanent"/long-term language partners. 1.5 years of German, old-fashioned (but new) textbooks in Chinese, Assimil, and a degree major (half-way). I guess I'm a marginal B1 by now.
I was also trying to decipher Perfectionnement allemand by translating it alone, and sometimes with my teacher's help (that was tiring enough) before I stopped recently.
My main problem is very short as a question: how can I learn further to reach fluency? I have a whole bunch of resources (well, now, I don't have time for all of them):
-anything beyond warum nicht that Deutsche Welle offers
-Perfectionnement allemand (I have to pretty much use the dictionary very heavily, without looking at the French)
-smaller grammar books, about 2 of them, I guess
-a bunch of graded readers, some are monolingual with audios, some are German-Chinese without audios
-e-dictionaries (German-German, German-English), two pocket dictionaries, one big German-Chinese
-Fokus Deutsch videos and transcripts
-2 or 3 German films with German subtitles
-courses of FSI, Linguaphone, etc (I can get them from a library)
That's an awesome lot, and I know I can crack any one of them directly; I just don't know how I should manage my time. But the clearest clue I have now is that I just can't use dictionaries too much. I have a clear concept of the whole grammar, except some less used function words (obschon, anstatt, etc); I'm already speaking German like a kid, but without all of the grammar. So, sometimes I can get over to my German-German dictionary for easier entries, but other than that.... you might well find it too tiresome to use a dictionary. So what would you do as a self-learner (at least for listening and reading comprehension, not considering writing and speaking) ?
>>Last but not least, my reference books for vocabulary and grammar are:
1) Langenscheidts Großwörtenbuch (Deutsch als Fremdsprache)
2) Duden (4th band out of 12): Die Grammatik
If I can really go to Germany in April next year, I'd definitely want to buy 1) above... perhaps along with some Assimil books auf Deutsch, if possible. A handy German-German dictionary (paper) is definitely a must.... I still don't have one. I can't learn anything now, but I do have the idea of struggling towards going monolingual at my stage. I started German much later than you did, and I'm in the dilemma (as always) of having to deal with multiple tongues.
My situation: 15 years of English (well, only the last 2 were effective only with self-study), sporadic listening comprehension and writing practice for Mandarin. No effective foreign exposure, no "permanent"/long-term language partners. 1.5 years of German, old-fashioned (but new) textbooks in Chinese, Assimil, and a degree major (half-way). I guess I'm a marginal B1 by now.
I was also trying to decipher Perfectionnement allemand by translating it alone, and sometimes with my teacher's help (that was tiring enough) before I stopped recently.
My main problem is very short as a question: how can I learn further to reach fluency? I have a whole bunch of resources (well, now, I don't have time for all of them):
-anything beyond warum nicht that Deutsche Welle offers
-Perfectionnement allemand (I have to pretty much use the dictionary very heavily, without looking at the French)
-smaller grammar books, about 2 of them, I guess
-a bunch of graded readers, some are monolingual with audios, some are German-Chinese without audios
-e-dictionaries (German-German, German-English), two pocket dictionaries, one big German-Chinese
-Fokus Deutsch videos and transcripts
-2 or 3 German films with German subtitles
-courses of FSI, Linguaphone, etc (I can get them from a library)
That's an awesome lot, and I know I can crack any one of them directly; I just don't know how I should manage my time. But the clearest clue I have now is that I just can't use dictionaries too much. I have a clear concept of the whole grammar, except some less used function words (obschon, anstatt, etc); I'm already speaking German like a kid, but without all of the grammar. So, sometimes I can get over to my German-German dictionary for easier entries, but other than that.... you might well find it too tiresome to use a dictionary. So what would you do as a self-learner (at least for listening and reading comprehension, not considering writing and speaking) ?
"My main problem is very short as a question: how can I learn further to reach fluency? I have a whole bunch of resources (well, now, I don't have time for all of them): "
Herr Xie:
I'm glad my studies of the German language were inspiring for you!! :D
As for your question, that's something I've be struggling with and an answer for that can be different to speakers of different languages.
In my case I guess I learned German fast because English helps to learn fast in terms in vocabulary and grammar. Also, having studied some Latin also gave me a better view and strategies to form vocabulary real fast. My best experience was when I lived in Okinawa and was talking to a teacher and wanted to say that Okinawa was "too isolated" from the resy of Japan. At that time I still didn't know how to say "entfernt" so I deceived the teacher by saying "isoliert", which is one strategy I use when I run our of words, i.e., word stem + -ieren. "engangieren", "reparienen", "telefonieren", etc...
The way I see fluency it's the process in which one masters the language in its entirety , which means to be able to read, write, speak and listen. However, I think that only children are able to learn from listening and then improve their vocabulary by reading and writing. For adults (at least for me), I guess that the study must involve at least a little grammar so that one just doesn't learn my memorizing large chunks and then putting them together because I think that'll sound lame. I think that balance of grammar, vocabulary, listening and conversation is necessary for acquiring a steady language base.
As for the materials you're quoting below I don't know them but think that the material should INSPIRE you to learn more, which means that won't happen if the texts are boring of if they just give you the original language followed by a translation in another language you might know (That's why I didn't like one of linguaphone or Rosetta Stone method I studied with). Well, translation is nice but that won't help you think the the target language and chances are you'll probably memorize what was said without understanding it.
I've always been criticized for loving the study of grammar (Not grammar ONLY) because I see it as a warm-up, which is something that many people don't want to do but will guarantee that you'll run faster and will go farther. In my experience studying in college and also learning languages by myself I've realized that people who don't study grammar never pass the "chunk" level, just putting together what they've learned or heard.
Oh, I remembered that you said somewhere that you're using "Themen" and I would throw that book away if I were you!! :D
While grammar is important it should be introduced slowly and some time should be given so that one particular aspect is learned before moving on to another. To be honest I got frustrated with declinations becase the first book I used for studying "German for Brazilian", gave the WHOLE TABLE of declinations just like Themen. Just imagine to memorize all those crazy der, die, das, dem, des, der with all the adjectives AT ONCE. Not even Tom Cruise could do that on MI.
Bottom line, a good material for me should:
1) Have a decent grammatical explanation
2) Have TAPES
3) Exercises with the keys so that one's progress can be tracked
4) Have LOTS of texts (I wouldn't like to be reading about politics or economy for a long time like many German texbooks do, which means I can talk about the environment but get lost when I have to talk business for instance)
"-anything beyond warum nicht that Deutsche Welle offers
-Perfectionnement allemand (I have to pretty much use the dictionary very heavily, without looking at the French)
-smaller grammar books, about 2 of them, I guess
-a bunch of graded readers, some are monolingual with audios, some are German-Chinese without audios
-e-dictionaries (German-German, German-English), two pocket dictionaries, one big German-Chinese
-Fokus Deutsch videos and transcripts
-2 or 3 German films with German subtitles
-courses of FSI, Linguaphone, etc (I can get them from a library) "
Either way, try to concentrade on 1 material first and try not to force it too much so that you won't get bored. Try to get the best out of each material and move on to another.
For instance, I'm studying Chinese with the book "Intermediate Chinese Reader" but try not to get caught with topics I don't like much. Before this book I was using "Intermediate Chinese" but realized that knowing about old stories from China when I can't even talk about myself. I think it's a matter of deciding what you need to learn now.
I've also started listening to Chinese pod and picked up several topics according to my needs. Either way, try to enjoy yourself as you improve in all aspects of the language. ana HAVE patience because language is a lifetime study!!!
Sorry if I wandered too much but I was inspired today!!!
Tschüss!!
Herr Xie:
I'm glad my studies of the German language were inspiring for you!! :D
As for your question, that's something I've be struggling with and an answer for that can be different to speakers of different languages.
In my case I guess I learned German fast because English helps to learn fast in terms in vocabulary and grammar. Also, having studied some Latin also gave me a better view and strategies to form vocabulary real fast. My best experience was when I lived in Okinawa and was talking to a teacher and wanted to say that Okinawa was "too isolated" from the resy of Japan. At that time I still didn't know how to say "entfernt" so I deceived the teacher by saying "isoliert", which is one strategy I use when I run our of words, i.e., word stem + -ieren. "engangieren", "reparienen", "telefonieren", etc...
The way I see fluency it's the process in which one masters the language in its entirety , which means to be able to read, write, speak and listen. However, I think that only children are able to learn from listening and then improve their vocabulary by reading and writing. For adults (at least for me), I guess that the study must involve at least a little grammar so that one just doesn't learn my memorizing large chunks and then putting them together because I think that'll sound lame. I think that balance of grammar, vocabulary, listening and conversation is necessary for acquiring a steady language base.
As for the materials you're quoting below I don't know them but think that the material should INSPIRE you to learn more, which means that won't happen if the texts are boring of if they just give you the original language followed by a translation in another language you might know (That's why I didn't like one of linguaphone or Rosetta Stone method I studied with). Well, translation is nice but that won't help you think the the target language and chances are you'll probably memorize what was said without understanding it.
I've always been criticized for loving the study of grammar (Not grammar ONLY) because I see it as a warm-up, which is something that many people don't want to do but will guarantee that you'll run faster and will go farther. In my experience studying in college and also learning languages by myself I've realized that people who don't study grammar never pass the "chunk" level, just putting together what they've learned or heard.
Oh, I remembered that you said somewhere that you're using "Themen" and I would throw that book away if I were you!! :D
While grammar is important it should be introduced slowly and some time should be given so that one particular aspect is learned before moving on to another. To be honest I got frustrated with declinations becase the first book I used for studying "German for Brazilian", gave the WHOLE TABLE of declinations just like Themen. Just imagine to memorize all those crazy der, die, das, dem, des, der with all the adjectives AT ONCE. Not even Tom Cruise could do that on MI.
Bottom line, a good material for me should:
1) Have a decent grammatical explanation
2) Have TAPES
3) Exercises with the keys so that one's progress can be tracked
4) Have LOTS of texts (I wouldn't like to be reading about politics or economy for a long time like many German texbooks do, which means I can talk about the environment but get lost when I have to talk business for instance)
"-anything beyond warum nicht that Deutsche Welle offers
-Perfectionnement allemand (I have to pretty much use the dictionary very heavily, without looking at the French)
-smaller grammar books, about 2 of them, I guess
-a bunch of graded readers, some are monolingual with audios, some are German-Chinese without audios
-e-dictionaries (German-German, German-English), two pocket dictionaries, one big German-Chinese
-Fokus Deutsch videos and transcripts
-2 or 3 German films with German subtitles
-courses of FSI, Linguaphone, etc (I can get them from a library) "
Either way, try to concentrade on 1 material first and try not to force it too much so that you won't get bored. Try to get the best out of each material and move on to another.
For instance, I'm studying Chinese with the book "Intermediate Chinese Reader" but try not to get caught with topics I don't like much. Before this book I was using "Intermediate Chinese" but realized that knowing about old stories from China when I can't even talk about myself. I think it's a matter of deciding what you need to learn now.
I've also started listening to Chinese pod and picked up several topics according to my needs. Either way, try to enjoy yourself as you improve in all aspects of the language. ana HAVE patience because language is a lifetime study!!!
Sorry if I wandered too much but I was inspired today!!!
Tschüss!!
>>謝生，除咗英語同埋德語之外，你仲唸住學啲邊種外語？學咗好耐德語咩？鍾唔鍾意搵個好啱你嘅羅曼語言？
Who are you?
I'm already learning French. French is very nice. :)
>>In my case I guess I learned German fast because English helps to learn fast in terms in vocabulary and grammar. Also, having studied some Latin also gave me a better view and strategies to form vocabulary real fast.
Needless to say, I'm also with a background in English, but most German verbs, the ieren verbs aside, sound so German and un-English.
>>I guess that the study must involve at least a little grammar so that one just doesn't learn my memorizing large chunks and then putting them together because I think that'll sound lame. I think that balance of grammar, vocabulary, listening and conversation is necessary for acquiring a steady language base.
But during my discussions with my teacher, I noticed that I really need to do some formal study, say, of grammar. I did this at school with Chinese too. I was asked to fill in "Not only...but also", "Although...but" (this is the Chinese construction), "Neither...nor..." in Chinese before I turned 10. I had to read poetry, or graded lesson texts, and I copied loads of vocab items - adverbs, adjectives, nouns, verbs, IDIOMS (you know, a huge part of Chinese)... formal study means the process of learning to read and write. Of coz, you can well say learning is all the four parts combined, but formal study does give you some further insights into the language itself. I won't emphasize grammatical study, but it does help to consult grammar books... I never did that with Chinese, and I don't see the need to, becoz I can also translate in my mind... in English OR Chinese. It won't help by reading Chinese grammar (I don't ask why you use 吧 or 呢 or 嗎 or 嘛 or 啦 or 了...I only see examples every minute) but this, I confess that I have no knowledge whatsoever in teaching my own language. I have to consult an Assimil book to see... ah! 嗎 is a question-marker!
>>I remembered that you said somewhere that you're using "Themen" and I would throw that book away if I were you!!
Oh, that's a political problem with my own major... I don't read it outside lessons. But it's a big bargain... the English version costs some $14 USD in Hong Kong, but the perfect carbon copies from China is just some 50 RMB... i.e. $6 USD. I still wonder why students are never introduced to the audios it includes. Those are decent for listening comprehension in the classroom... but my teacher just won't use them. People still maintain a horrible accent.
möchte --> mochte
Preposition --> Prepoßißion (with the same stress)
sein --> ßein
consonant r --> "h"
etc, etc, etc.
>>To be honest I got frustrated with declinations becase the first book I used for studying "German for Brazilian", gave the WHOLE TABLE of declinations just like Themen.
I can write this for beginners: I think declension tables are good to browse after you know them already like a reflex, but they're lame as beginners' reading material. That's just like putting a Hanzi poster near your bed, or in your room, and memorize them every day, and cross out anything you already have down pat. I find it entirely strange to remember Hanzi or declensions in that way. I'd refer learning it thru the way, rather than before the way.
>>Either way, try to concentrade on 1 material first and try not to force it too much so that you won't get bored. Try to get the best out of each material and move on to another.
Understood. I'd say I'd divide them into several groups for review/vocab expansion or so. I'm still sticking to FSI for narratives... and as a general. comprehensive course. Grammatical study is now becoming like a side issue... since I know quite a lot already. Fokus Deutsch (I watched them once last year) and movies are more like for the "media" department...
Yep, I do listen to chinesepod. That certainly helps a lot even for me, since I can learn new phrases every day, and turn them into my active knowledge immediately. Its audio quality is superb and easy to use... even if I can't watch CCTV, Phoenix TV that often (which are boring btw...).
Who are you?
I'm already learning French. French is very nice. :)
>>In my case I guess I learned German fast because English helps to learn fast in terms in vocabulary and grammar. Also, having studied some Latin also gave me a better view and strategies to form vocabulary real fast.
Needless to say, I'm also with a background in English, but most German verbs, the ieren verbs aside, sound so German and un-English.
>>I guess that the study must involve at least a little grammar so that one just doesn't learn my memorizing large chunks and then putting them together because I think that'll sound lame. I think that balance of grammar, vocabulary, listening and conversation is necessary for acquiring a steady language base.
But during my discussions with my teacher, I noticed that I really need to do some formal study, say, of grammar. I did this at school with Chinese too. I was asked to fill in "Not only...but also", "Although...but" (this is the Chinese construction), "Neither...nor..." in Chinese before I turned 10. I had to read poetry, or graded lesson texts, and I copied loads of vocab items - adverbs, adjectives, nouns, verbs, IDIOMS (you know, a huge part of Chinese)... formal study means the process of learning to read and write. Of coz, you can well say learning is all the four parts combined, but formal study does give you some further insights into the language itself. I won't emphasize grammatical study, but it does help to consult grammar books... I never did that with Chinese, and I don't see the need to, becoz I can also translate in my mind... in English OR Chinese. It won't help by reading Chinese grammar (I don't ask why you use 吧 or 呢 or 嗎 or 嘛 or 啦 or 了...I only see examples every minute) but this, I confess that I have no knowledge whatsoever in teaching my own language. I have to consult an Assimil book to see... ah! 嗎 is a question-marker!
>>I remembered that you said somewhere that you're using "Themen" and I would throw that book away if I were you!!
Oh, that's a political problem with my own major... I don't read it outside lessons. But it's a big bargain... the English version costs some $14 USD in Hong Kong, but the perfect carbon copies from China is just some 50 RMB... i.e. $6 USD. I still wonder why students are never introduced to the audios it includes. Those are decent for listening comprehension in the classroom... but my teacher just won't use them. People still maintain a horrible accent.
möchte --> mochte
Preposition --> Prepoßißion (with the same stress)
sein --> ßein
consonant r --> "h"
etc, etc, etc.
>>To be honest I got frustrated with declinations becase the first book I used for studying "German for Brazilian", gave the WHOLE TABLE of declinations just like Themen.
I can write this for beginners: I think declension tables are good to browse after you know them already like a reflex, but they're lame as beginners' reading material. That's just like putting a Hanzi poster near your bed, or in your room, and memorize them every day, and cross out anything you already have down pat. I find it entirely strange to remember Hanzi or declensions in that way. I'd refer learning it thru the way, rather than before the way.
>>Either way, try to concentrade on 1 material first and try not to force it too much so that you won't get bored. Try to get the best out of each material and move on to another.
Understood. I'd say I'd divide them into several groups for review/vocab expansion or so. I'm still sticking to FSI for narratives... and as a general. comprehensive course. Grammatical study is now becoming like a side issue... since I know quite a lot already. Fokus Deutsch (I watched them once last year) and movies are more like for the "media" department...
Yep, I do listen to chinesepod. That certainly helps a lot even for me, since I can learn new phrases every day, and turn them into my active knowledge immediately. Its audio quality is superb and easy to use... even if I can't watch CCTV, Phoenix TV that often (which are boring btw...).
Today I found an interesting article about the importance of German in Brazil:
"O alemão cresce em demanda na área tecnológica. "O estado de São Paulo é um dos locais do mundo que mais tem empresas alemãs, todas as multinacionais alemãs estão aqui e deve-se chegar a 900 empresas com capital alemão somente no estado, a área farmacêutica também é exige o aprendizado do idioma". (The demand for German in technological fields is growing. The state of São Paulo is one of the places in the world that has most of German companies, all the German multinational companies are here and there must be 900 companies in the state. The pharmaceutical field requires the study of the language).
Taken from :
http://www.universia.com.br/materia/materia.jsp?materia=5739
Based on this I don't think that German is useless at all (At least not in Brazil)!!! I posted somewhere else that I got my first job in Brazil because I know German.
Cheers!!!
"O alemão cresce em demanda na área tecnológica. "O estado de São Paulo é um dos locais do mundo que mais tem empresas alemãs, todas as multinacionais alemãs estão aqui e deve-se chegar a 900 empresas com capital alemão somente no estado, a área farmacêutica também é exige o aprendizado do idioma". (The demand for German in technological fields is growing. The state of São Paulo is one of the places in the world that has most of German companies, all the German multinational companies are here and there must be 900 companies in the state. The pharmaceutical field requires the study of the language).
Taken from :
http://www.universia.com.br/materia/materia.jsp?materia=5739
Based on this I don't think that German is useless at all (At least not in Brazil)!!! I posted somewhere else that I got my first job in Brazil because I know German.
Cheers!!!
If German were useless, then French and Spanish would be useless, too, especially in Asian confines. So I'd rather think none of them is useless.