Why do Dutch and Scandinavians speak English so well?

anti-PC   Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:19 pm GMT
Well, then you are lucky in the USA. In Europe it is very common to see women with full burkhas and only a single eye slit all over the place.
A headscarf is fine, whatever, but the full burkha thing is ridiculous.
As for modesty vs self-control, I think it is more an issue of male dominance over females. Males are in charge and one's wife is one's property, and who wants their wife to be seen by other men? I would too like to cover my wife if I could, but of course my wife has as much rights as me so I can't impose it on her.
The worst thing of all is when the Muslims (especially when it's a cleric) complain about the locals. Often these clerics complain about how women dress scantily.
Anyway I don't see why the West has to be so PC. I mean, in Turkey headscarves are banned in university. In a MUSLIM country they are allowed to be unindulgent to the Muslims, so why on earth can't we be even slightly unindulgent to them in NON-MUSLIIM countries? Banning headscarves in some places in the West would cause a scandal.
Guest   Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:06 am GMT
I would too like to cover my wife if I could,

Really? Mi wife is so beautiful that I want every man to see her and be jealous. I guess that it depends on the point of view. Only unsecure men wold like to hide their wives behind burkhas.
Politically Incorrect   Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:57 am GMT
<<is the US or the Netherlands really the right place for people who disagree to a strong degree with the local culture?>>

I guess it depends on how strongly they disagree with our culture.

I know I'm being Politically Incorrect here, but I'd draw the line at honor killings/beheadings of wives/daughters, kidnappings/forced conversions to Islam, enforcement of Sharia law (i.e. burqas/Ramadan) on local non-muslims, raping non-muslim women, killing local non-muslims (especially Jews) for blasphemy, fire-bombings of liquor stores, night clubs, and synagogues, general terrorism against non-muslims, stockpiling weapons of mass destruction in Mosques, etc., etc.

It seems like we should be allowed a little bit of reasonable intolerance against behavior of this type, even if it's "god's work". I know lots of people around here (New York) disapproved of the 9/11 attacks, for example.
mrasiteren   Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:12 pm GMT
you are just being ridiculous, none of above is islamic and you know that
in quaran it says one who kills someone is like the one who kills everyone
i just feel sorry for you, none of terrorism acts could be law of any religion not just islam, im a peaceful man and so islam, but i have serious doubts about you. by saying those things you are hardly helping any kind of peace if it is what you want. please be logical we are all brothers here belive it or not we are the servants of same God, and please correct me if am wrong
i dont think your religion forbids people to wear headscarves and we just want to freedom of wearing whatever we want. Is it too much to ask?
everyone please be logical
Guest   Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:07 pm GMT
Political correctness will end up destroying the Western countries. Muslims don't even need to use terrorism, they just have to wait.
Guest   Sat Jun 06, 2009 2:11 pm GMT
You should not be allowed to wear whatever you want. Everything has a limit, even freedom. Burkhas don't let you see the face of that person, so if he commits a crime you can't identify him. Assume that you live in a western country and you have to accept our rules and also customs, for the sake of God. Only crimminals hide their face in our societies.
K. T.   Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:48 pm GMT
"in quaran it says one who kills someone is like the one who kills everyone'

Context is important. Out of context, in English translation, this quote could go many ways. I don't think you would like the logical conclusion that some would reach after reading this in isolation.
mrasiteren   Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:02 pm GMT
sorry that's all i've got but this i think this translation would do better

whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.

i wasn't going to comment at all becouse of my poor english if i didn't think it is necassary
K. T.   Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:35 pm GMT
"and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind."

Interesting. I have heard a similar quote, but a different source.
K. T.   Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:39 pm GMT
Ah, wait! This is the quote that Mr. Obama used, isn't it? What is the following section?
K. T.   Sat Jun 06, 2009 6:40 pm GMT
I'll just look it up in Arabic.
Hrothland   Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:19 pm GMT
Re some of the earlier (non Islam related!) posts, that's really interesting with the dubbing. I can't say whether Portuguese people really speak better English than Spanish people as I haven't met many, though those I have spoke it well, but very interesting still.

With regards harshness, Spanish can be pretty harsh, especially in Spain as they say [x] not [h] for "j". But then Italian can even be harsh too depending on the speaker. French isn't harsh especially, but it's not clear either. English and Dutch and Danish are all equally mumbly really, though Dutch has a few more [x]s, though that depends on where you're from. Swedish is sweet and a bit silly sounding I think, especially as some of the vowels are the same as particular English dialect vowels (e.g. long "a" in "gata" is very much RP or London "a" in "path", and "u" in "slut" is rather Yorkshire "oo" in "food"). Much clearer than Danish. German can sound mumbly or clear depending on the speaker, though standard German (like standard English English actually) is pretty clear and precise sounding.

My två kronor.
Hrothland   Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:29 pm GMT
Oh, and yes English lost the original Germanic [x] sound, but so did Danish, and most/a lot of the [x]s in German and Dutch are new inventions from /g/ or /k/ respectively.

What is interesting is from an English perspective, I think Swedish and Dutch are probably the two easiest languages to learn, so maybe it really does have something to do with similarity. Both (like English) have really reduced grammar and similar words. Indeed quite a lot of English words are more like North Germanic than West Germanic despite English being West Germanic. For example "få" for "few", "lit-"/"lill-" for "little", "sjuk" for "sick". I reckon possibly if either the Dutch or the Scandinavians had done a better job at nicking America and breeding, people might well be asking why the English spoke such good Swedish or Dutch.
Couple things   Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:42 pm GMT
1. There aren't more Muslims than Christians in the Netherlands. I don't know why people are claiming that. According to the most recent survey information, 44% of the Dutch population adheres to Christianity and 6% adheres to Islam.

2. Mrasiteren is either ignorant or lying to you (which is permissible, under Sharia, if said to a non-Muslim). Here is the full quotation:

<i>“whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or <b>corruption in the earth</b>, it is it shall be as if he killed all mankind.”

"Corruption in the earth" means not following Sharia. It is therefore permissible under Sharia for Muslims to murder non-Muslims. (And by the way, shame on Barack Obama for misrepresenting this quotation.)
12345   Sun Jun 07, 2009 2:21 am GMT
«44% of the Dutch population adheres to Christianity»
Yes survey information..

I believe those 6% Muslim. But Christianity isn't much higher than 30%. Esp if you're in the bigger cities. Those who go to church every week I think is even lower than 5%...