Don't learn Traditional Chinese characters, but Peh-oe-ji
"Tionghoa Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:30 am GMT
To： Tai-oan-lang Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:19 am GMT
<<Tai-oan-lang Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:30 am GMT
"NowYouSeeMeNowYouDont Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:25 am GMT
Well, just let this post sink down, I'm fed up with hostile argument. OK?
> Boh-dai-ji Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:52 am GMT
> If Taiwan were to adopt this so-called 'Peh-oe-ji' as its Guoyu (national language) in place of Mandarin,
> I believe it would be downgraded to a region that is even more isolated from the world.
In the past Qing dynasty, Manchurian officers agreed the popular people were talking in Taiwanese in schools and mostly used Peh-oe-ji as the written language.
The Written Mandarin were promoted into Taiwan at 1940s. From the 1950s, the Taiwanese was banned and replaced by Mandarin in the schools, later in the public media etc. The Peh-oe-ji was banned from 1970s.
In today the "multi-cultures policy" was held in Taiwan, so the native Taiwanese speaker has the human right to choose their spoken language and written language.
If adopt the Peh-oe-ji that may isolate Taiwan from the world, then many Asian countries may be isolated from the world because they have not Mandarin as Guoyu (national language).
Anyhow, Taiwan choose the Peh-oe-ji or Written Mandarin that there is also a region, not any downgraded or upgraded in there. The schools of Taiwan may be provide the multi-languages courses for students to learn such as 1. Written Mandarin, 2. Peh-oe-ji, or Written Hakka, or Formosans 3. English, 4. Classical and Literary Chinese, etc.
In Germany, the secondary schools provide 6 kinds of languages for students to learn such as 1. German, 2. Latin, 3. Greek, 4. English or French, 5. and 6. other two European or Asian languages.
The Philippines and India also provide the multi-languages courses for students; 1. an ethnic language of the student, 2. the official language of the state 3. English and 4. etc.
> Tionghoa Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:52 am GMT
原著民 (Indigenous peoples)
Are you mean the Ethnic Formosan Groups: Ami, Atayal, Bunun, Kavalan, Paiwan, Puyuma, Rukai, Saisiyat, Tao, Thao, Tsou, Truku, Sakizaya, and Sediq.
The Indigenous peoples (原著民) of Taiwan is the Negritos (矮黑人).
Sorry, not 原著民, should be 原住民 (gôan-chū-bîn), means aborigines.
> Tionghoa Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:37 am GMT
yes, with latin alphabet, you can read and hear the sounds, but what does these sounds mean in Mandarin or Cantonese?
The word and sound (syllable) are different concepts. The meaning of Mandarin or Cantonese are expressed in the word, not in a syllable (sound). A word can be a mono-syllable or multi-syllables, but as a natural language in which the words with multi-syllables are more than the mono-syllable.
Mandarin and Cantonese are two different languages / dialects, thus they have different "syllabary" or "phonetic system". Such as English and French have different "phonetic system.
Mandarin sounds (syllables):
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
难怪汉语拼音或闽南语白话字难读。每个字的首尾字母是辨别的重点。声调拼音 tonal spelling（就是尾头用字母表示声调，像国语罗马字，苗语 RPA ，我用的闽南语蝌蚪字等等），因为尾头字母所代表的声调及文法词类有相关性，字体在尾头而且又比一般声调符号大，阅读起来就事半功倍。今天终于知道为什么声调拼音对于阅读方便那么重要了。
English：from the above paragraph in ill-spelt English, one can see that the recognition of words in English reading depends largely on the first and last letter. This too makes the tonal spelling much more efficient for human reading in tonal languages. For instance, in the Taiwanese language, tonal features are correlated wtih grammatical functions. Thus, using a tonal letter elucidates this correlation much more clearly. Thumbs down for Peh-oe-ji, thumbs up for Tadpolenese, ha ha:
Here are list of more examples.
English sounds (syllables):
(word with mono-syllable)
(word with multi-syllables)
> Tionghoa Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:07 pm GMT
> 知己知彼、百战不殆。(knowing both enemy and yourself clearly, then you can fight a hundred battles with no danger of defeat.)
> None of above characters is truly polysyllable vocabulary, but a few combined single characters that play an active and intelligent role in suitable positions, if you insist that manner of speaking should be switched to colloquial vulgar Chinese, then it would be change into 既要知道自己的情况，又要知道对方的实力，只有这样，才能在战争中不打败仗。If in this special way, probably (I'm not very sure) it would be able to guess the meanings of the words from the context, but it's not the right way that mandarin used to be, or should be. Actually each single character can't act effectively as a qualified or practical vocabulary in the context, unless it combines other characters which might bring about some troubles, such as ambiguous, homophonicor, or elusive phenomena.
1. This is a sentence of Classical Chinese:
Classical Chinese words
2. (a) This is a sentence of Written Mandarin:
"既要知道自己的情况， 又要知道对方的实力， 只有这样， 才能在战争中不打败仗。"
"Jiyao zhidao ziyi de qingkuang, youyao zhidao duifang de shili, zhiyou zheyang, caineng zai zhanzheng zhong bu da baizhang. "
2. (b) This is a "PHRASE" of Written Mandarin which is borrowed from the "SENTENCE" of Classical Chinese:
Written Mandarin words
(Mandarin word with monosyllable)
(Mandarin word with polysyllables)
Mandarin words with fixed polysyllables doesn't really function unless people have the basic knowledge of understanding Chinese characters, that's to say, while people are reading Chinese in Latinization, they still interpret Chinese articles with the thinking of characters, with classical Chinese, and with traditional idioms, it's certainly not that, they immediately comprehend Latinization as soon as they just see the Latinization, quite the contrary, at that time, people have to read Latinization much more inefficiently and childishly than Chinese characters. Also, the key point is that, those various free combined method of Chinese characters (into vocabularies) are absolutely not all in fixed patterns just like unchanging European words in the dictionaries. For example, youyao (又要) is only a combination of 2 characters, instead of 1 fixed vocabulary, if you force it to be a vocabulary, then several patterns will appear based on different status. especially zhiyizhibi (知己知彼), baizhanbudai (百战不殆), if you don't know this classical Chinese, you won't understand what it exactly means, even if you can force yourself to memorize it mechanically, you still can't either learn other classical Chinese by analogy, or draw inferences about other cases from these instances. In brief, the soul of Chinese writing system should be single characters, the patchworks that were pieced together with Latinization doesn't suit Chinese fine, it even seems rather absurd from the viewpoint of Chinese. All in all, if Latinization were put into action someday, then classical Chinese would die out, the classical elements that exist in modern Chinese (Mandarin, Cantonese, Minnanese) would also mostly disappear, maybe people know them ambiguously, but don't know how and why it can express this special meaning. That'll be the biggest tragedy of Chinese world, Chinese culture, and Chinese history. Again, I wasted my time on explaining to foreigners Why Chinese writing system can't be Latinized, if you're still not able to understand the key factors, perhaps I can do nothing to help you any more. If you think I'm telling you a lie, then just ignore my posts. Wish you the best !
practice: zhiyizhibi (知己知彼)
correction: zhi Ji (not yi) zhi bi