|
|
Don't learn Traditional Chinese characters, but Peh-oe-ji
Using Chinese characters for written communication is OK. Same for Vietnamese Chu Nom. There are many people trying very hard to give some life back to Chu Nom, for the same reason you have given to Classical Chinese. I do not see any danger of Chinese characters being replaced by romanized writing, for Mandarin, or even Cantonese.
Out of all Chinese dialects, Hoklo/Minnan/Hokkien/Taiwanese is the only language group that will ever have a real romanized writing, realistically speaking.
In short, all your comments/worries about romanized writing is about a non-existing problem.
On the other hand, I feel good about Hoklo having a romanized writing. It will be the ONLY Chinese dialect with a real romanized writing, not just transliteration. Wu languages actually are also very suitable for romanized writing, but they are losing their own dialects faster than anybody has expected. Hoklo has its own phonetic pecularities that makes Chinese characters unsuitable. So, bye bye to you character-loving guys. My own mother tongue needs to take a different path.
So you guys can keep enjoying typing tones with numbers, and keep enjoying lastnames like the unpronounceable "Ng".
As for me, I will keep writing and producing video clips like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlFxenihnWo
Little Tadpole:
(Hoklo has its own phonetic pecularities that makes Chinese characters unsuitable).
No, Minnanese is certainly not a new modern language of China, it was derived from classical Chinese just like Cantonese or Wunese and not deeply affected by Western languages (at least, much less than Mandarin), even if it were really a new modern style, it wouldn't mean that characters are not suitable for its writing system, but WHY do you think it unsuitable for Minnanese/Taiwanese? Let me tell you the truth, because you don't know the original characters that should be written as, you've just found that a few of homephones seem to make little sense, maybe they're some symbols, oh no, they're absolutely not. And, I guess the aspects of the grammar, the structure, & the usages of characters, has to be much closer to classical Chinese than Mandarin, if even the characters match the demands of Mandarin, then I was wondering again why it doesn't suit Minnanese well, probably the answer should be also explored from the bottom of your heart, you've always thought that, everything of Western world is perfect and effective, on the contrary, everything of China is unpleasant and backward. Right?
Little Tadpole Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:44 am GMT
So you guys can keep enjoying typing tones with numbers, and keep enjoying lastnames like the unpronounceable "Ng".
****************************************************
Hahaha...very funny little tadpole!
You are complaining about "ng" being unpronounceable while indulging yourself in inventing little strange tadpoles like "xni, quln, yelng, pnuarl, kyc, bni, cniuc, hnuahil, rirnjin"...... which are truly unpronounceable!
How the heck do you pronounce them? If they can't be pronounced, what's the point of using a phonetic alphabet?
I speak Teochew and Hokkien which are slightly different from those spoken in Tawian and I understand part of your singing but I simply can't relate your singing to those strange little tadpoles! I noticed that you even 'stole' some French words...... hahaha.....
Tionghoa: "everything of China is unpleasant and backward. Right?"
Not everything. But "Inferiority Complex" is behind every single social illness of the Chinese. And you are a perfect example of it. I recommend you to read some of Alfred Adler's writings, and get cured from this horrible disease.
38: "xni, pnuarl, bni, cniuc, hnuahil,".
Your beloved Mother Country's famous Xiamen University was the one that invented the usage of second-to-initial-n to denote nasalization. I am so so sorry, now what are you going to say? That Xiamen University is not Chinese enough, or what?
Tonal spelling has been used by a plethora of tonal languages, including Gwoyeu Romatzyh for Mandarin and RPA for Hmong. You may be ignorant, other people are not.
Cheers,
Little Tadpole Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:03 am GMT:
I'm sorry, my "beloved Mother Country" doesn't have a Xiamen University. Frankly, I don't know what you want me to say. I was only talking about those "beloved little tadpoles" of yours that you're so obsessively fond of singing. I don't really care which mother frog gave birth to them or how Chinese enough they are.
Now you mention it, the surprisingly significant number of "stolen" English and French words incorporated into that tadpole writing system seems to show signs of the so-called "inferiority complex" that you brought up. Obviously, it was done deliberately and compulsively, and probably because the "mother frog" thought very highly of those two languages.
Little Tadpole:
<Not everything. But "Inferiority Complex" is behind every single social illness of the Chinese. And you are a perfect example of it. I recommend you to read some of Alfred Adler's writings, and get cured from this horrible disease.>
No, just the opposite, maybe "superiority complex" is one of my shortcomings, but when it comes to the relations between Chinese languages and characters, I feel quite confident about my sensible theory. It actually involves a lot of experiences and meditation on classical, modern, written Chinese (not simplest colloquial) for years. And I don't care whether you consider all my posts as gibberish, but I'm sure that you've been suffering from an illness which is called "Inferiority Complex", and probably it couldn't help you a lot to cure this mental disease by reading occidental famous articles. Of course, we should try to learn some science, technology, management skills, and whatever else from Western developed countries, but Latin alphabet almost has nothing to do with the advanced level of Chinese writing system, Latinization certainly suits Indo-European languages fine, but just as what I said before, it really doesn't match the demands of Chinese writing system, whether you like it or not.
48: "Now you mention it, the surprisingly significant number of "stolen" English and French words ..., and probably because the "mother frog" thought very highly of those two languages."
Naahh, English and French? Look again more carefully and you'll see German is the thing behind. See, the great thing about Tadpolenese is that it takes Teochew and German into account. Ha ha. Try to pronounce the vowel in the word "eurl" and you'll understand what I mean. Trust me, Tadpolenese is Teochew-friendly.
What other Minnan/Hokkien romanized system has ever taken into account the needs of all 5 Hoklo subdialects simultaneously? Zhangzhou, Quanzhou, Xiamen, Teochew, Taiwanese are all taken into account in Tadpolenese. Try to compete with that. Ha ha.
Tionghoa: "maybe "superiority complex" "
Oh dear, see, that's why I told you to read Adler.
There is no such a thing as "superiority complex" per se. The so-called "superiority complex" is nothing but a manifestation of "inferiority complex". It's a symptom.
Litter Tadpole, I'm 38, not yet 48.
> @ Tionghoa,
andante: 日本語借漢字用了幾世紀，當作它自己的「哲學」來用。為何另一個鄰居獨立自主的國家敢於跟中華文化取經，甚至敢於借中華文字來翻譯歐美的文字 (仍保有它自己的發音)。像 Mandarin 的「哲學」(philosophy) 這個詞，還是從日本語借回來影響 Mandarin 的。為何閩南語的字，都不敢跟 Mandarin 借一些材料來用，甚至再來影響 Mandarin。怪怪的。(2006-04-12)
wierdboy: 在同一個空間加上同一個時間的環境下，使用 "表意" (ideogram) 不 "表音" (phonogram) 的 "漢字" (Chinese character) 標示不同的語言，會有加劇語言之間競爭的現象。舉例來說，「哲學」的台語發音是 "chiat-hak"，Mandarin 是 "ㄓㄜ ㄒㄩㄝ"，想也知道 Mandarin 會壓過台語。這也就是要推動 "台語拼音文字" 的目的，希望 "拼音系統" 的存在可以 "減緩" 台語在語言競爭上的劣勢。
日本國內沒有 Mandarin 存在的環境，所以他們可以比較放心來借用漢字標示他們的語言；如果哪天中國也 "統一日本"，推行 Mandarin 起來，那日語也會淪為 Mandarin 的方言 (dialect)，日語也會被視為漢字的另一套 "呼音" (pronunciation) 罷了，就如同台語被視為是漢字的 "地方呼音" (dialect pronunciation) 一樣。(2006-05-22)
wierdboy: 不同的語言之間若喪失 "地理區隔" 或 "社會區隔"，會 "彼此競爭"，會產生 "消長" 的結果。現代交通方便，朝發夕至，更有網際網路，彈指天涯；語言之間的競爭於今猶烈。這也就是中國的學者在擔心 Mandarin 擋不住英語 (English) 的競爭的原因。也是英語維基百科早已百萬條，而 Mandarin 維基百科還在五萬多條慢慢前進的原因。缺乏區隔的結果就是強者愈強，弱者愈弱。適當的 "區隔" 是保護 "瀕危語言" 的必須方法之一。
如果 Holo語（閩南語）只能用 "漢字標寫" (adopted Chinese character)，那她只會消失的更快。因為漢字的 "表義功能" 強過 "表音功能"，而 "語音" (sound) 是 "語言" (language) 的 "靈魂" (spirit)；當漢字既標 Mandarin 語音，又標台語語音時，我們覺得漢字與 Mandarin 的連結密切呢？還是台語呢？失去 “語音” 的語言，只是個 "空殼" 的 "傀儡" 罷了。君不見；
「擔仔麵」被唸成「ㄉㄢˋㄗㄞˇㄇ一ㄢˋ」，
「棺材板」被唸成「ㄍㄨㄢ ㄘㄞˊㄅㄢˇ」，
「虱目魚」被唸成「ㄕ ㄇㄨˋㄩˊ」……。
這些最在地最生活的語詞都淪陷了，遑論甚麼「哲學」、「編輯」、「檢視」、「格式」……等等，那些自詡 Holo語 "口說無礙" 的人士，有幾個能順利做個公開發言的。
漢字拙於標音，因此漢字的發音容易簡化歸一，君不見，滿坑滿谷的人；
將「龜裂」唸成「ㄍㄨㄟ ㄌ一ㄝˋ」，
將「滑稽」唸成「ㄏㄨㄚˊㄐ一」，
將「學國語」唸成「ㄒㄩㄝˊ國語」，
將「摘要」唸成「ㄓㄞ 一ㄠˋ」……。
國中、國小的 Mandarin 教育用了那麼多的時數，出版社出了那麼多的破音字學習書籍，整個 Mandarin 教育界花了那麼多力氣，尚且無法維持 Mandarin 漢字的標準發音；台語用漢字寫，區區幾本「台語課本」(Taiwanese Textbook) 幾堂「鄉土語言」(local language)，何德何能能保持台語的發音呢？
台語用 “拼音文字” 書寫，記載了語音；有 “語音記載” 的拼音文字，保護台語的 “靈魂” 於 Mandarin 的傾軋之下。拼音文字增加台語與 Mandarin 之間的區隔，是保護台語的 “不二方法”。(2006-05-26)
> 38 Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:02 am GMT
> I speak Teochew and Hokkien which are slightly different from those spoken in Tawian and I understand part of your singing but I simply can't relate your singing to those strange little tadpoles!
> I noticed that you even 'stole' some French words...... hahaha.....
There has some vernaculars in Teochewese. Such as Chheng-hai, Phou-leng, Kiat-iunn, Tio-an, etc., are slightly different from those spoken in Tawian. But the Tio-iunn are very different in the accent from spoken Taiwanese. The Tio-iunn vernacular are more like the accents spoken in Hing-hwa Language and Foochowese.
If some loanwords from French were borrowed into Taiwanese that is proved the Taiwanese which is in the way of development again.
The Mandarin also borrowed a lot of loanwords from Japanese, English, Russian etc. The Japanese, Vietnamese and Korean borrowed more than 30% to 70% of their vocaburies from the Literary Chinese.
> Tionghoa Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:23 am GMT
In brief, mandarin, sometimes, is generally acknowledged as "half colloquial & half literary". You know? <
The Written Mandarin has two kinds of written forms.
1. Baihuawen which was developed at 1920s, in this form there is "half colloquial & half literary". In Taiwan, Baihuawen is the standard form teaching in schools and using in public media.
2. Standard Modern Hanyu which was developed at 1950s, in this form there is most of "pure colloquial". In Mainland, Standard Modern Hanyu is the standard form teaching in schools and using in public media.
Why "pure colloquial" form in Written Mandarin that was developed in Mainland at 1950s? That is because which linguistic project prepared for adopting the romanized form of Mandarin in the future time. But after the 1980s, the authority may be abondon this plan of romanized Mandarin.
Putonghua; Spoken Mandarin
Standard Modern Hanyu; Written Mandarin
reference:
普通話，按照1956年2月6日指示：
1. 以北京語音為標準音。(pronunciation)
2. 以 北方話為基礎方言。(colloquial)
3. 以典範的現代白話文著作為 語法規範。(grammar)
|