The difference(s) between Old Dutch and Old Frankish

blob   Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:19 pm GMT
Can someone tell me what are the main features of these two languages?
rep   Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:10 pm GMT
Old Dutch didn't exist. It is artificial definition."Dutch" is result of standardization of Low Franconian dialects of Middle Low German ,mixed with Low Saxon dialects of Middle Low German and Old Frisian. It appeared in XVI age.
Old Frankish is ancestor of Low Franconian (Dutch language, Low Rhine,Limburgish and Ripuarian dialects.
Old Frankish,Old Saxon and Old Frisian were dialects of Westgermanic language.
<<Fränkisch
Gilaubistu in got fater almahtigan?

Sächsisch A
gelobistu in got alamehtigan fadaer?
Visc flôt aftar themo uuatare

Sächsisch B
Gilouis thu an got fader alomahtigan? >>
http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/germ/asachsbs.htm
rep   Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:23 pm GMT
<<Over de taal waarin het stuk geschreven staat bestaat onduidelijkheid. Veel Nederlandse onderzoekers zien de tekst als een Oudnederfrankische taalvariant, in Duitsland wordt het als Oudsaksisch beschouwd.
Oudnederlands of Oudsaksisch
1. Forsachistu diobolae?

ec forsacho diabolae.
2. end allum diobolgeldae?

end ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae.
3. end allum dioboles uuercum?

end ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum,
Thunaer ende Uoden ende Saxnote
ende allum them unholdum, the hira genotas sint.
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksische_doopgelofte
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A4chsisches_Taufgel%C3%B6bnis
Dutch linguists take up the position that it is "Old Dutch" (Oudnederlands)" text and German linguists-that is Old Saxon (Oudsaksisch).
minstrel   Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:05 pm GMT
> rep Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:10 pm GMT
> Old Dutch didn't exist. It is artificial definition.
> Old Frankish is ancestor of Low Franconian (Dutch language, Low Rhine,Limburgish and Ripuarian dialects.
> Old Frankish,Old Saxon and Old Frisian were dialects of Westgermanic language.

Dutch, Angles, Saxon Jutes, Frisian and etc., were branches belong to ancient Gar-Dena tribe. The language of Frankish tribe was just a sister language with Gar-Dena's before 3000 years ago.
rep   Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:05 pm GMT
<<The language of Frankish tribe was just a sister language with Gar-Dena's before 3000 years ago. >>
There was group of Frankish tribes,not one tribe:
"Modern scholars of the Migration Period are in agreement that the Frankish identity emerged at the first half of the 3rd century out of various earlier, smaller Germanic groups, including the Salii, Sicambri, Chamavi, Bructeri, Chatti, Chattuarii, Ampsivarii, Tencteri, Ubii and Batavi"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
Old Saxon and Old Frankish dialects heavily influenced each other (sometimes linguists can't separate them(http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oudsaksische_doopgelofte)) and both groups of dialects evolved to Low Saxon and Low Franconian dialectal groups of Middle Low German.
rep   Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:59 pm GMT
<<Dutch, Angles, Saxon Jutes, Frisian and etc., were branches belong to ancient Gar-Dena tribe.>>
Dutch not exist in those times.
maine   Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:05 pm GMT
Perhaps term " Old Low German" is politically incorrect to describe ancestor of Dutch language?
minstrel   Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:16 pm GMT
rep Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:59 pm GMT
<<Dutch, Angles, Saxon Jutes, Frisian and etc., were branches belong to ancient Gar-Dena tribe.>>
Dutch not exist in those times.

The Dutch branch is older than Angles, Saxon Jutes and Frisian. The Saxon, Jutes, Frisian, Vandel, Norse, Varangian (Dane), Rus, Lombardos, Goth etc., all are the personal names of prince of ancient Gar-Dena tribe.
haggard   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:20 pm GMT
What the fuck was the Gar-Dena tribe?

What do you actually mean with the Dutch branch? Celts used to live in what is now the Netherlands.
rep   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:42 pm GMT
"Dutch" is Middle English term for Middle Low German (including Low Saxon and Low Franconian dialects).
minstrel   Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:05 pm GMT
haggard Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:20 pm GMT
Celts used to live in what is now the Netherlands.

Celts is not the Indigenous of now the Netherlands. The Celts's homeland in what is now the Central Asia and invaded into Europe before Germanic tribes.
opinion   Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:24 pm GMT
"Hwæt! Wē Gār-Dena in geārdagum,
þēodcyninga, þrym gefrūnon,
hū ðā æþelingas ellen fremedon. "


Gar-Dena means Spear-Danes in poem of "Beowulf".
http://www.nvcc.edu/home/vpoulakis/Translation/beowulf1.htm
minstrel   Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:18 pm GMT
opinion Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:24 pm GMT
Gar-Dena means Spear-Danes in poem of "Beowulf".

There describes in Beowulf parts about the ancient tales (before 4500 - 2500 years ago) and parts about the legends after Migration Period. Because the chieves of Varangians were the hereditary consul (prime minister) of Gar-Dena tribe in ancient period. Therefore the Spear-Danes can mean the Varangian branch in sometimes. In this old epic, the minstrels praised Beowulf and the chief (a descendant of Gar-Dena's consul) of Varangians. Beowulf is not belong to Gar-Dena tribe.
rep   Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:30 am GMT
<<The Dutch branch is older than Angles, Saxon Jutes and Frisian>> What is "Dutch branch" ?
minstrel   Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:35 pm GMT
rep Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:30 am GMT
What is "Dutch branch" ?

When the Gar-Dena tribe increased many new members in ancient time. Some princes (whom are belong to different generations) and new menbers move to the new places and builded the new branches. The Saxon, Jutes, Frisian, Goth, Varangian, Norse, Vandal, Lombardy, Rus, etc., were divided from the Dutch and the old menbers were still living in the Dutch branch.

e.g. the English people move to new places of Canada, America, New Zealand and Australia, whom build the new branches of Canadian, American, New Zealander and Australian. The old menbers of English people still live in Britain.