Russkij jazyk na latinitse

maximiliano   Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:55 pm GMT
Did you even think that I was coercing you to use the Latin script? Did you think that perhaps it wasn't for people like you to use, but maybe for Diaspora Ukrainians or maybe less ignorant/tolerant Ukrainians?

There is proof, I don't know why You didn't learn about it, but Ukrainians did at one point use Latin for Ukrainian, perhaps not all Ukrainians.

The diaspora Ukrainians are not telling you how to live, you control that. They perhaps want the Ukrainian government to also recognize their needs overseas, because they are citizens as well.

I have nothing towards Russian people, but maybe you should stop making them look like they're your parents. Pan-Slavism was during WWI. It was an ideology that all slavs depended on Russia to help them. Perhaps Russia did help the slavs, and that was a good thing, but as kids, they grow up and leave their parents, so should other slavic countries.

Each individual Slavic country is for itself. Ukraine doesn't need to have permission from Russia to make changes within its own borders, or amongst its citizens. The world would then look at Ukraine as though it were a child asking permission from its parents.

Yes, the Cyrillic Alphabet works just fine. It isn't broke, and we're not trying to fix it. But for "certain" purposes, having a back up Latin script, isn't a bad idea. Why would it be a bad idea? Why is it so threatening? Are you actually afraid that people might like? It's not a bad idea, if it would be used for international purposes as well.

Drunkie, I understand what you are saying. Cyrillic has worked for a long time, and Ukrainians should not give it up. But why can't Ukrainians use both? If Ukraine's Ukrainians like using the Cyrillic, and the Diaspora Ukrainians perhaps want a Latin alphabet, what can it hurt? It'll be used by mostly Diaspora Ukrainians anyway, so it won't be controlling your life, because it would be overseas. It's like you said, "You are in America, and that's where you should stay." And if we are going to stay in America, Ukraine should recognize us, because we are also citizens.
Drunkie   Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:13 pm GMT
For god's sake, it's not Russia who is our parent. Ukraine spawned Russia, not the other way round!
And by the way, you are not our citizens.
Linguist   Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:38 pm GMT
Drunkie I m interested how Ukraine spawned Russia, tell me, make me laugh LOL
Frances   Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:55 pm GMT
I can't believe that this has degraded into a Ukraine v Russia slanging match.

It seems to me Maximiliano, that you seem to associate Cyrllic with Russians and you have the need to distinguish yourself from Russians. There's something that has to be understood here: (1) the use of Cyrillic is not exclusively limited to Russians and (2) the creators of Cyrillic were not Russian.

There is nothing wrong with a dual script system. Serbs use it and it seems to work fine. I just personally find the Cyrillic system easier for me to use.

"I m interested how Ukraine spawned Russia, tell me, make me laugh LOL"

I think thats in reference to Kievan Russia.
greg   Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:55 am GMT
Le problème avec la transcription latine du russe c'est qu'il y a autant de transcriptions que de langues utilisant l'alphabet latin. Alors il vaut mieux conserver le cyrillique qui, soit dit en passant, est un alphabet très élégant — même si son écriture cursive reste encore un mystère pour moi (je ne peux décoder du russe écrit à la main).
Frances   Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:06 am GMT
You're correct Greg!
bernard   Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:17 am GMT
il y a déjà un pays qui utilise un alphabet non latin en Europe : la Grèce, et ça ne pose pas de problème majeur. La diversité linguistique Européenne passe aussi par les différents alphabets.
Ed   Sat Oct 15, 2005 10:03 pm GMT
<<il y a déjà un pays qui utilise un alphabet non latin en Europe : la Grèce, et ça ne pose pas de problème majeur. La diversité linguistique Européenne passe aussi par les différents alphabets. >>

I agree. And also, if there are so many different languages in Europe, what's the problem with having different alphabets?
Linguist   Sun Oct 16, 2005 6:30 am GMT
"I m interested how Ukraine spawned Russia, tell me, make me laugh LOL"

I think thats in reference to Kievan Russia. <<

right, that means that Kiev is Russian city, contemprory ukrainian nationalists are absolutely dumb
Drunkie   Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:15 am GMT
Linguist,
You are just as daft as some Ukrainian nationalists like maximiliano are.
I live in Kiev, and who the bleeding hell are you to tell me whose city it is? :) I'm obviously not here to give you a history lesson, but you may as well enquire about the origins of the name 'Rus', about the area it originally referred to and about who were the founders of the city of Moscow.
Frances - I entirely agree with you. Cyrillic is just fine, and it belongs to all Slavs and not exclusively Russians.
maximiliano   Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:59 pm GMT
Drunkie said: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:13 pm GMT
For god's sake, it's not Russia who is our parent. Ukraine spawned Russia, not the other way round!
And by the way, you are not our citizens.

Actually, I am a Ukrainian citizen. I have a Ukrainian Passport, like some other diaspora Ukrainians.

I never said Russia started Ukraine. I said "some people" make it look that way. Like Linguist!!

I agree with Frances as well. Cyrillic is for all slavs, not just Russians. But the same could be said about Latin, it's not just for Poles or Serbs. I think Ukrainian should have both scripts. Cyrillic would probably be the most popular to use, as according to Drunkie, but Latin could be used by some Ukrainians who would prefer the Latin script and for international purposes. There's nothing wrong with having a dual script system!!!

As Frances said:
"There's something that has to be understood here: (1) the use of Cyrillic is not exclusively limited to Russians and (2) the creators of Cyrillic were not Russian. There is nothing wrong with a dual script system. Serbs use it and it seems to work fine."

Drunkie is right about Kievan Rus. So many people these days think just because it might say Rus, that it means Russia. The Ukrainian language was able to distinguish the two. Русь - Руська, Росія - Російська.

Drunkie, you seem like a nationalist when you said the things about Kievan Rus. Are you?
Drunkie   Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:57 am GMT
Maximiliano, cheers for having a Ukrainian passport. Yep you are a citizen then.
But I still don't understand why we would need a form of Latin script. I emphasise - I don't. But if some people want to use it that much - oh well, what the hell. I just wonder how much time it will take you to agree on a system that would be acceptable to everybody.
I guess I could be called a nationalist. A moderate one. I prefer the word 'patriot' though, because 'nationalist' may have a lot of negative connotations for some people.
I may have lost my temper a bit over the subject, so sorry everyone whom I may have offended. Sorry all except for Linguist. Boy, does that wanker piss me off.
Maximiliano   Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:08 am GMT
Drunkie, I am not saying that we need to choose ONE that pleases everyone. Cyrillic would be the OFFICIAL script. Latin would be official as well, but still I'm sure Cyrillic would be used more often in Ukraine. Latin would just be used on passports, on road signs, some books if there was a large enough population willing to use it, Ukrainian newspapers in other countries, and on the internet. The uses for it would be unlimited. Think of it as a back up. Let's say I am starting a Newspaper in the U.S. for a large Ukrainian population, but I have extreme difficulties with using the Cyrillic script in the presses, I could then go to the back up script which would be Latin. I'm not saying, "HEY EVERYBODY!! No one can no longer use Cyrillic!" I'm saying, use Cyrillic, if it doesn't seem to work in your situation, use the back up. I admire the fact that you are a patriot, so am I. I like the Cyrillic script, it has played a HUGE role in Ukraine's history. It is a historical relic which should not be casted aside. But in many cases, Latin can work in "certain" areas where we might have some difficulty with Cyrillic.

I think we can agree on at least one thing, Linguist does piss a lot of people off.

¡Viva Ucrania!
Linguist   Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:33 pm GMT
Sorry all except for Linguist>>

of course as I say what you dont like. We know that in ex-USSR countries history was rewrote in order to make Russia an enemy and make people know only about negative parts. On the other hand Ukraine still depends on Russia and it is still a little sister at least in business and this means much more even then in politics. Russia gives many work places for ukrainian citizens and by the way not everyone considers himself an Ukrainian. Most people speak Russian, there are Russian schools etc. Russia invests quite a lot of money in Ukraine economics, you can love and scream about your great Ukraine but reality doesn't show this. I feel pity for you guys. One can be a patriot of course but its always good if you have something to be proud of(well possibly Taras shevchenko, Andrei Shevchenko, Yushchenko, Khmelnitsky, gorilka i salo or may be Bandera? UNSO? What's you choice guys?). Stupid love to the country built on anti-Russian things is a lost game, believe me.

Proud to be Russian.
СЛАВА РОССИИ!
Maximiliano   Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:04 pm GMT
Linguist again proves himself to be stupid!!

Russia was a swap and mud when Kiev was a thriving empire. Keep your unproven theories to yourself. Yay for you, for being proud of being Russian. The Ukrainian language first appeared in writing in the 900’s A.D. That should tell you something if you know your history.

Ukraine's population decreased drastically under Stalin who wasn't even Russian. That's perhaps one reason why Russia outnumbers Ukraine. Oh, yeah! Let's not forget that not everyone in Russia is Russian. If Russia's minorities were taken away, who probably wouldn't have too much left. And the reason why so many people speak Russian, becuase the were pretty much forced to learn it in the Soviet era.

Ukraine is modernizing is looking a lot more like the rest of Europe, instead of a little hut in the middle of Siberia.

Sure be proud of being Russian. I'm not against it. But stop criticizing, and face the truth, which is PROVEN history. Not bias which is promoted in communist, oops ... I mean "democratic" Russia.

¡Viva Ucrania!