Tiffany, "Let's talk about the stereotypes and prejudices that you are spouting". Like.............what? What kind, huh? Are you serious?
Why do people look down on Spanish?
<<I'm afraid I don't quite understand why you equate the United States with Northern Europe. Unless I've greatly misunderstood your messages, you assumption seems to be that because people from the United States often (at least in your experience) look down on Southern Europeans and Latin Americans, Northern Europeans must also feel the same way. >>
Okay, I am going to speak from MY own personal experience with northern Europeans. I have come into contact with, and have had numerous conversations with people from northern Europe, including Germans, Dutch, Flemings, Danes, Englishmen, etc. Many of them, seem to hold the same views which Apam speaks of N.Europeans and N. Americans as having. They like to go to southern Europe for the beaches and the weather, for vacation, for the relaxed approach to living. They like the fashion and all of the chic, stylish stuff which comes from the south, and they tend to like the food. These are things which they admire about S. Europeans. But with that admiration or respect, also comes a degree of disdain. They view the people as being somewhat lazy. The religious factor seems to be of less importance now that most Europeans are very secular in nature. They find languages like Spanish and Italian to be "very ugly", and they crinckle their noses at the suggestion that they are attractive languages. They seem to like French, and many more of them study French in school versus Spanish or Italian. A few of the ones my age made some remarks about the southerners not shaving in certain areas. They also are usually of the opinion that northern France is not as different from their homeland countries as southern France or Spain, Portugal, Italy. Yet, they also seem to hold the view that the French are the most arrogant people in Europe. So in all, they seem to hold a mixed measure of respect and disdain for southern Europeans. North American attitudes toward Latin America mirrors that of N. Europeans' views toward southerners in many ways. I think Apam was trying to draw a comparision between the two, as there are similarities. Although the differences between N America and northern Europe, or Latin America and southern Europe are profound indeed, they are still similar in many ways, as N.America's cultural foundation was laid by people of the British Isles, and Latin America's cultural foundation was laid by the Portuguese and Spanish.
Okay, I am going to speak from MY own personal experience with northern Europeans. I have come into contact with, and have had numerous conversations with people from northern Europe, including Germans, Dutch, Flemings, Danes, Englishmen, etc. Many of them, seem to hold the same views which Apam speaks of N.Europeans and N. Americans as having. They like to go to southern Europe for the beaches and the weather, for vacation, for the relaxed approach to living. They like the fashion and all of the chic, stylish stuff which comes from the south, and they tend to like the food. These are things which they admire about S. Europeans. But with that admiration or respect, also comes a degree of disdain. They view the people as being somewhat lazy. The religious factor seems to be of less importance now that most Europeans are very secular in nature. They find languages like Spanish and Italian to be "very ugly", and they crinckle their noses at the suggestion that they are attractive languages. They seem to like French, and many more of them study French in school versus Spanish or Italian. A few of the ones my age made some remarks about the southerners not shaving in certain areas. They also are usually of the opinion that northern France is not as different from their homeland countries as southern France or Spain, Portugal, Italy. Yet, they also seem to hold the view that the French are the most arrogant people in Europe. So in all, they seem to hold a mixed measure of respect and disdain for southern Europeans. North American attitudes toward Latin America mirrors that of N. Europeans' views toward southerners in many ways. I think Apam was trying to draw a comparision between the two, as there are similarities. Although the differences between N America and northern Europe, or Latin America and southern Europe are profound indeed, they are still similar in many ways, as N.America's cultural foundation was laid by people of the British Isles, and Latin America's cultural foundation was laid by the Portuguese and Spanish.
Bravo LAA. You are 100% correct! It appears that the Latin, heavy on vowels languages of Southern Europe don't get the respect that they deserve. You're so right about N. American's perception of French, by the way. In the past, whenever I heard French spoken in a public setting, the people in the immediate area would often smile and look on approvingly. Maybe it reminds them of Julia Child instructing them on how to make bouillabaise or croissants. I, for one, don't get it. But French does have an overall positive review with most Americans, whereas French's sister languages are spoken by those dirty wops and spicks. You know what I mean? I'm sure you do.
<<In the past, whenever I heard French spoken in a public setting, the people in the immediate area would often smile and look on approvingly. Maybe it reminds them of Julia Child instructing them on how to make bouillabaise or croissants. I, for one, don't get it. But French does have an overall positive review with most Americans, whereas French's sister languages are spoken by those dirty wops and spicks. You know what I mean? I'm sure you do. >>
I know exactly what you mean. French is the "language of sophisticated society", and of "romance", but Spanish and Italian are these "strange, vowel exaggerated languages of dirty, poor, uncouth immigrants". That's just the way most Anglo-Americans seem to see things. Spanish is the language of the servants, the cooks, the dishwashers, or Zorro, and Italian is the language of a messy spaghetti sauce stained cook with a big belly and loud mouth. Personally, I think vowel rich Spanish and Italian are the most beautiful languages in the world. Almost everything associated with the Hispanic world and Italy I love. The cuisine, the music, the girls, the language, the culture, etc. But, many North Americans and N. Europeans seem to view these places, languages, and cultures as inferior. Sure, many Anglo-Americans seem to appreciate some Latin American things like a "sexy 'Latin accent'", salsa, tango, Mexican food, passion and warmth, close families, and other "exotic" things. But they can't seem to get over that subconscious hump, where they are programmed to think of Hispanics or even some southern Europeans as inferior.
I know exactly what you mean. French is the "language of sophisticated society", and of "romance", but Spanish and Italian are these "strange, vowel exaggerated languages of dirty, poor, uncouth immigrants". That's just the way most Anglo-Americans seem to see things. Spanish is the language of the servants, the cooks, the dishwashers, or Zorro, and Italian is the language of a messy spaghetti sauce stained cook with a big belly and loud mouth. Personally, I think vowel rich Spanish and Italian are the most beautiful languages in the world. Almost everything associated with the Hispanic world and Italy I love. The cuisine, the music, the girls, the language, the culture, etc. But, many North Americans and N. Europeans seem to view these places, languages, and cultures as inferior. Sure, many Anglo-Americans seem to appreciate some Latin American things like a "sexy 'Latin accent'", salsa, tango, Mexican food, passion and warmth, close families, and other "exotic" things. But they can't seem to get over that subconscious hump, where they are programmed to think of Hispanics or even some southern Europeans as inferior.
Everyone can talk about his or her own experiences. There is no problem with that. But be careful to stay away from the the generalizing.
apam, you do not see anything you said as stereotyping? If I told you most Italians don't pay taxes, like to circumvent the legal system and break laws left and right, can't drive for their life, litter without a second thought, are lazy and don't do work, are rude to anyone they don't *personally* know, are prejudiced against gypsies, Albanians and North Africans, are in the mafia etc. What would you say?
There is an Italian somewhere that fueled a characterization above. Another somewhere else that fueled another, or confirmed it. The important point is that it is a generalization of the "average" Italian. Yet no one in Italy seems to actually be average. Why? Because it is a *stereotype*. I cannot stress this enough.
If you don't get it after this, I cannot help you.
LAA,
In my experience, I have met very few people who actually hold any real contempt for the Spanish language. I have met no one at all who holds contempt for the Italian language.
To qualify "real contempt", what I mean is none of them see a langauge as the fault. I have however, met more than a few who espouse the stereotyped "All of you are Mexicans who are illegal and taking up valuable taxpaper money" bs. I have also met illegal workers who though they are illegal, certainly work and are proud to pay their taxes. I have met many *legal* Mexicans and Latin Americans. I'm sure there is an illegal worker out there that fuled those stereotypes. The media does not help (it hardly ever does).
I personally do not feel I look down on the Spanish or Italian langauge. I may think Italian sounds better than Spanish, but that is not enough to say I "look down" on Spanish.
I'll however not tell you what Americans think, feel or are, because I simply do not know and don't care to villanize strangers. I prefer to let them speak for themselves. Americans what do you think? So far the only Americans I have seen here are apam, Brennus and LAA. Do any of you hold these views?
apam, you do not see anything you said as stereotyping? If I told you most Italians don't pay taxes, like to circumvent the legal system and break laws left and right, can't drive for their life, litter without a second thought, are lazy and don't do work, are rude to anyone they don't *personally* know, are prejudiced against gypsies, Albanians and North Africans, are in the mafia etc. What would you say?
There is an Italian somewhere that fueled a characterization above. Another somewhere else that fueled another, or confirmed it. The important point is that it is a generalization of the "average" Italian. Yet no one in Italy seems to actually be average. Why? Because it is a *stereotype*. I cannot stress this enough.
If you don't get it after this, I cannot help you.
LAA,
In my experience, I have met very few people who actually hold any real contempt for the Spanish language. I have met no one at all who holds contempt for the Italian language.
To qualify "real contempt", what I mean is none of them see a langauge as the fault. I have however, met more than a few who espouse the stereotyped "All of you are Mexicans who are illegal and taking up valuable taxpaper money" bs. I have also met illegal workers who though they are illegal, certainly work and are proud to pay their taxes. I have met many *legal* Mexicans and Latin Americans. I'm sure there is an illegal worker out there that fuled those stereotypes. The media does not help (it hardly ever does).
I personally do not feel I look down on the Spanish or Italian langauge. I may think Italian sounds better than Spanish, but that is not enough to say I "look down" on Spanish.
I'll however not tell you what Americans think, feel or are, because I simply do not know and don't care to villanize strangers. I prefer to let them speak for themselves. Americans what do you think? So far the only Americans I have seen here are apam, Brennus and LAA. Do any of you hold these views?
We're not the typical average Americans, and apart from Brennus, an educated intellectual, the only other Americans who have posted their viewpoints are Apam and myself, of Hispanic-American and Italian-American backgrounds. So, we being on the recieving end of cultural prejudice, cannot be an accurate representation of how most Anglo-Americans feel on this issue.
In that case, can you really give an accurate representation either? I would really like to meet your average American. I've spent decades in the US and haven't thus far.
Sure, I've met fat people, ignorant people, and racist people here. But are all Americans this way, let alone your average American? Not from where I'm standing. To me it seems that the average person is the average person - everywhere. I've met average people personally in America, Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Jamaica and England. They hold some prejudices, but are educated enough to not believe everything they hear. They are open-minded for the most part.
Either that, or I've been fantastically lucky to live in the only places where your average American is not a walking stereotype, and I've lived in quite a few states now. Which do you think is more plausible?
Sure, I've met fat people, ignorant people, and racist people here. But are all Americans this way, let alone your average American? Not from where I'm standing. To me it seems that the average person is the average person - everywhere. I've met average people personally in America, Canada, Germany, France, Italy, Jamaica and England. They hold some prejudices, but are educated enough to not believe everything they hear. They are open-minded for the most part.
Either that, or I've been fantastically lucky to live in the only places where your average American is not a walking stereotype, and I've lived in quite a few states now. Which do you think is more plausible?
I think the European stereotype of the fat, ignorant, overly nationalistic patriotic American applies not to the more enlightened states like New York or California, but to southern states and the heartland, where by international standards, the people are very conservative, religious, and in many ways, ignorant. Pretty much, Red America deserves this stereotype. Racism is still very strong in these parts. Gun laws and the death penalty, and moral views are very "traditional" you might say. People are very still very religious, and in many ways sort of old fashioned. People often refuse to question their leaders because "it's un-American" or for the "commies". People there are less cultured. They're oblivious to the world around outside our borders, other than that "we are being invaded by wetbacks who want to steal our jobs and that Mexico is using them to re-conquer the west". I think places like Florida, the North East, and the west coast are much more enlightened places, with more sophistication, urbanization, modern outlook, etc. I'm the type of person who likes things to very modern and progressive. This doesn't mean i'm some raving liberal, who advocates socializing the economy and legalizing gay marriage. But I do like things to be the way they should in the 21st century. On economics, I believe in abolishing the capital gains tax, along with reducing income taxes and other policies which discourage savings and investment. But I'm also very progressive in some areas, like stem cell research, and universal healthcare. But much of the U.S. heartland must seem very backward for Europeans.
I don't want to drift from the main topic at hand, because I don't want this thread to be deleted. So let's get back to talking about languages.
Tiffany,
I'm just curious. Are you an Anglo-American? Because our household background plays an important role in our perception of languages and cultures.
I don't want to drift from the main topic at hand, because I don't want this thread to be deleted. So let's get back to talking about languages.
Tiffany,
I'm just curious. Are you an Anglo-American? Because our household background plays an important role in our perception of languages and cultures.
LAA,
<< I have come into contact with, and have had numerous conversations with people from northern Europe, including Germans, Dutch, Flemings, Danes, Englishmen, etc. Many of them, seem to hold the same views which Apam speaks of N.Europeans and N. Americans as having. >>
I'll take your word for it.
<< They like to go to southern Europe for the beaches and the weather, for vacation, for the relaxed approach to living. They like the fashion and all of the chic, stylish stuff which comes from the south, and they tend to like the food. These are things which they admire about S. Europeans. >>
Yes, that's definitely true. The coastal areas of Spain, for example, are filled with British and German 'ghettos'. 'We' (Northern European tourists) don't exactly have a particularly good reputation in Southern Europe either.
<< But with that admiration or respect, also comes a degree of disdain. They view the people as being somewhat lazy. >>
Southern Europeans are stereotypically perceived to be more laid-back than Northern Europeans. The stereotype related to this is that Southern Europeans have a lack of concern for timeliness and speed — an attitude which Northern Europeans would stereotypically find frustrating.
<< The religious factor seems to be of less importance now that most Europeans are very secular in nature. >>
Yes. Actually, in my experience, I've found that it's mainly Southern Europeans who tend to emphasise religion as one of the alleged differences between Northern and Southern Europe. Because the Christianity found in the Romance-speaking countries in Europe is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, they sometimes seem to assume that the Germanic-speaking countries are Protestant to the same degree. This is an oversimplification, because roughly 30% of people in Britain, German and the Netherlands are at least notionally Roman Catholic, not to mention that Austria, Ireland and Flanders are traditionally predominantly Roman Catholic areas.
<< They find languages like Spanish and Italian to be "very ugly", and they crinckle their noses at the suggestion that they are attractive languages. They seem to like French, and many more of them study French in school versus Spanish or Italian >>
If that's you're experience then I'll take your word for it. However, Spanish seems to be the new trendy language in England at the moment, especially amongst younger people. I have certainly never come across anyone here who appeared to look down upon or explicitly dislike either Spanish or Italian.
It's true that French is the most popular language to learn in England, and is often seen as 'sophisticated'. However, I feel that this is mainly for historical reasons. Most of the Germans I've met have tended to view France and French (which they can only very rarely speak) with indifference.
<< Yet, they also seem to hold the view that the French are the most arrogant people in Europe. >>
This does seem to be a popular opinion in both Britain and Germany, yes.
<< I have come into contact with, and have had numerous conversations with people from northern Europe, including Germans, Dutch, Flemings, Danes, Englishmen, etc. Many of them, seem to hold the same views which Apam speaks of N.Europeans and N. Americans as having. >>
I'll take your word for it.
<< They like to go to southern Europe for the beaches and the weather, for vacation, for the relaxed approach to living. They like the fashion and all of the chic, stylish stuff which comes from the south, and they tend to like the food. These are things which they admire about S. Europeans. >>
Yes, that's definitely true. The coastal areas of Spain, for example, are filled with British and German 'ghettos'. 'We' (Northern European tourists) don't exactly have a particularly good reputation in Southern Europe either.
<< But with that admiration or respect, also comes a degree of disdain. They view the people as being somewhat lazy. >>
Southern Europeans are stereotypically perceived to be more laid-back than Northern Europeans. The stereotype related to this is that Southern Europeans have a lack of concern for timeliness and speed — an attitude which Northern Europeans would stereotypically find frustrating.
<< The religious factor seems to be of less importance now that most Europeans are very secular in nature. >>
Yes. Actually, in my experience, I've found that it's mainly Southern Europeans who tend to emphasise religion as one of the alleged differences between Northern and Southern Europe. Because the Christianity found in the Romance-speaking countries in Europe is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, they sometimes seem to assume that the Germanic-speaking countries are Protestant to the same degree. This is an oversimplification, because roughly 30% of people in Britain, German and the Netherlands are at least notionally Roman Catholic, not to mention that Austria, Ireland and Flanders are traditionally predominantly Roman Catholic areas.
<< They find languages like Spanish and Italian to be "very ugly", and they crinckle their noses at the suggestion that they are attractive languages. They seem to like French, and many more of them study French in school versus Spanish or Italian >>
If that's you're experience then I'll take your word for it. However, Spanish seems to be the new trendy language in England at the moment, especially amongst younger people. I have certainly never come across anyone here who appeared to look down upon or explicitly dislike either Spanish or Italian.
It's true that French is the most popular language to learn in England, and is often seen as 'sophisticated'. However, I feel that this is mainly for historical reasons. Most of the Germans I've met have tended to view France and French (which they can only very rarely speak) with indifference.
<< Yet, they also seem to hold the view that the French are the most arrogant people in Europe. >>
This does seem to be a popular opinion in both Britain and Germany, yes.
My ethnicity should not matter, but if by "Are you Anglo-American" you mean "Are you white?", then the answer is no. I am, in fact, a minority. I also happen to be against stereotyping of all kinds.
You got have some stereotyping Tiffany. I mean, at least in stand up comedy.
Tiffany, I don't stereotype anybody, I observe, listen, and deal with the facts. The FACTS. And the facts are that there is a TON of bigotry in this country. One of those FACTS is that I've experienced a TON of BIGOTRY just because my last name has a vowel at the end of it!!!! I'm not stereotyping. Just the FACTS ma'm. THE FACTS. THE FACTS. THE FACTS.
<<If that's you're experience then I'll take your word for it. However, Spanish seems to be the new trendy language in England at the moment, especially amongst younger people. I have certainly never come across anyone here who appeared to look down upon or explicitly dislike either Spanish or Italian. >>
Well, the Brits seemed to be indifferent to it, while the Germans, Danes, Dutch, etc. were definitely turned off to it, with all of the vowels and rolled 'r's. And with their accents in Spanish, it's no wonder they didn't like it. But they usually liked French and if they knew a Romance language, it was usually French, except for a few kids who studied Spanish in school.
Well, the Brits seemed to be indifferent to it, while the Germans, Danes, Dutch, etc. were definitely turned off to it, with all of the vowels and rolled 'r's. And with their accents in Spanish, it's no wonder they didn't like it. But they usually liked French and if they knew a Romance language, it was usually French, except for a few kids who studied Spanish in school.
« One of those FACTS is that I've experienced a TON of BIGOTRY just because my last name has a vowel at the end of it!!!! I'm not stereotyping. Just the FACTS ma'm. THE FACTS. THE FACTS. THE FACTS. »
But you also attempted to present your impression of how Northern Europeans generally view Southern Europeans as 'facts'. To what extent have you experienced a similar sort of bigotry in Northern Europe?
But you also attempted to present your impression of how Northern Europeans generally view Southern Europeans as 'facts'. To what extent have you experienced a similar sort of bigotry in Northern Europe?