The dreaded R!!!

Guest   Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:27 pm GMT
Is the German R pronounced the same way as the French R? They are both very guttural, right? Or, similar at least?
JakubikF   Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:14 pm GMT
In my opinion they are different... not at all but still they sounds different. Unfortunately I don't speak French so I don't really know how to explain this difference. I think that French R is harder to pronounce.
Guest   Mon Dec 25, 2006 12:02 am GMT
I'm currently learning both German and French, and since I pronounce the R's the same way, my French sounds German and my German sounds French.

I don't think it's supposed to be this way >_<
Meesh   Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:48 am GMT
I'm learning the Hannoverian dialect of German, so would the uvular R of the Bavarian dialect be applied to the Hannoverian dialect too? In other words, is the Bavarian dialect similar to the Hannoverian dialect?

Thanks, Brennus, you're so knowledgable.

Meesh.
Guest   Mon Dec 25, 2006 8:09 am GMT
>>Thus a word like "Robot" sounds something like "Rho-baht."<<

"baht" like [bat]? Or "bâtt" as in [bAt]? No. It's a closed up "bot" = [bOt] or even [bot].

To me, the French and German production of R are almost identical; the German version seems to be sustained a little longer.
Meesh   Tue Dec 26, 2006 1:45 am GMT
Are mid-word G sounds in German uvular, too?

For example, "regen"


Meesh
Bubbanator68   Tue Dec 26, 2006 3:51 am GMT
In reference to the German 'r' sound: In Bavarian dialects (which, actually are a whole group of dialects spoken in Southern Germany and Austria) is generally pronounced with the middle of the tongue near but not quite touching the very front of the soft palate, where the soft and hard palates meet. This is for initial 'r' sounds and those in the middle of words. At the end of words in Bavarian dialects, the 'r' is typically pronounced a good deal like the final 'r' in Oxford English (that is, close to a "schwah"-sound ("-uh" rather than the American hard 'r'). In practice, many words that end with an 'r' in Hochdeutsch (the standardized language) are spelled with a final 'a' in Bavarian dialects ('mir' in Hochdeutsch vs. 'mia' in Bavarian). Not entirely scientific, but based on personal experience as a speaker of Bavarian dialect, Hochdeutsch and English (native English-speaker, acquired German in Bavaria and Austria over a period of several years.) If you listen to Wolfgang Puck on FoodTV, you'll note his pronunciation of many English words is challenging to understand--but it reflects a classic Bavarian pronunciation. (W.P. is Austrian). Hope this is useful.
Travis   Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:13 am GMT
>>Are mid-word G sounds in German uvular, too?

For example, "regen"


Meesh<<

I think you're thinking of Dutch when you're saying such, but what Dutch really has a voiced *velar* (not uvular) fricative /G/ for orthographic <g>, corresponding to German /g/. The only "German" dialects that I know of that have [G] (for /g/ in certain positions) are (at least some) non-Franconian Low German (Low Saxon and East Low German) dialects, but I do not consider Low German to be the same thing as German (especially since I include Dutch, West Flemish, and Afrikaans as part of it).
Travis   Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:16 am GMT
>>In reference to the German 'r' sound: In Bavarian dialects (which, actually are a whole group of dialects spoken in Southern Germany and Austria) is generally pronounced with the middle of the tongue near but not quite touching the very front of the soft palate, where the soft and hard palates meet. This is for initial 'r' sounds and those in the middle of words. At the end of words in Bavarian dialects, the 'r' is typically pronounced a good deal like the final 'r' in Oxford English (that is, close to a "schwah"-sound ("-uh" rather than the American hard 'r'). In practice, many words that end with an 'r' in Hochdeutsch (the standardized language) are spelled with a final 'a' in Bavarian dialects ('mir' in Hochdeutsch vs. 'mia' in Bavarian). Not entirely scientific, but based on personal experience as a speaker of Bavarian dialect, Hochdeutsch and English (native English-speaker, acquired German in Bavaria and Austria over a period of several years.) If you listen to Wolfgang Puck on FoodTV, you'll note his pronunciation of many English words is challenging to understand--but it reflects a classic Bavarian pronunciation. (W.P. is Austrian). Hope this is useful. <<

You must remember, though, that Standard German (aka "Hochdeutsch", even though the term "Hochdeutsch" actually just means High German, of which Bavarian dialects are part) is actually non-rhotic too, but it still phonemically has /R/ in coda positions due to the nature of its morphology (as said /R/ can still be realized as [R] if another morpheme is added after it which starts with a vowel).
Not a robot or rho-baht   Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:04 pm GMT
Brennus Mon Dec 25, 2006 7:10 am GMT
"
" According to the "Handbook of the International Phonetic Association", German 'r' is uvular like French. Thus a word like "Robot" sounds something like "Rho-baht." However, I believe that it is not uniformly uvular in German, only in certain dialects, mainly Bavaria. "

LOL !!!! German people, you must learn to correctly pronounce robot : *Rho-baht* LOL !!!

P.S. only if you're bavarian.

If you don't pronounce it "rho-baht", all your messages will be deleted. you must speak like Brennus tells !!!
Guest   Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:50 pm GMT
what is the name of the english R?
I know french R is differently pronounced according to regions, or countries.
Kimura-sensei   Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:32 am GMT
I won't be precise, but take this as a hint. Excluding the final "-r" sound, which is usually similar to the first "o" in British English "conscious", I know there an isogloss which separates German "R, r" into two different main pronunciations for initial "r" and mid-word in some cases. The people to the north of this line tend to make the "rolling r" (the sound of Spanish "r-" as in "rata" and "-rr-" as in "perro"; or as in Swedish "röt").

To the south of the isogloss (e.g. Bavaria), the sound tends to the French "r" (when it really sounds), and (many) Bavarian people just can't pronounce the rolling "r". But the sound less intense than that of French.

This is what a Bavarian girl told me all this a couple of years ago. She was a clear example of this "I-can't-make-rolling-r" condition.
Fredrik from Norway   Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:30 am GMT
Lots of expertice here, but wow how unclear:

Guest:
For practical purposes, the uvular r of French and German is more or less the same.
But be aware of the fact that a uvular r in German in certain positions mutates into an a-like vowel, as in British RP. Thus you don't hear a very uvular or guttural sound at the end of the word "Hannover", but something like a vowel. A good book of German pronounciation will explain this properly to you.

The more or less rolled r is in Germany typical of rural dialects, especially in the South and especially in Bavaria.

Brennus:
Your post is totally wrong! Uvular r is not at all typically Bavarian (although many Bavarians use it). Uvular r is the standard r in Danish, but only found in southern Sweden and southwestern Norway.
Rho-baht sounds *american   Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:13 pm GMT
"Brennus, you're so knowledgable. "
_____________________________________

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Possibly about how can you delete messages, but for sure not about german.
Pauline   Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:33 pm GMT
Meesh,

If you would like to learn german, it's better asking someone who can speak german. Fredrik from Norway can speak very well german.

Brennus don't know nothing about it : this is *immediatly* evident to all the people who can speak german when they read his comments such as the completely incorrect rubbish about rho-baht and the "r" ( " baht" is the incorrect vowel sound also and of course Brennus' informations about r were incorrect).

All the german-speaking visitors got fed up here because he deleted *all* the german threads because he couldn't understand it. Now they visit another forum where the moderator, not like at Antimoon, has intelligence, knowledge and can speak some foreign languages.

If you learn german, it's the best to learn Hochdeutsch : standard german. Then after you can learn a dialect. This is my opinion - I'm not german but I've learned the language and like it very much.

I'm french-speaker, and when I'm speaking german I pronounce the " r" the same like I say it in french, and nobody has told me it's incorrectly pronounced.

I don't visit anymore antimoon but I'm bored today, so it's why I've written this LOL !!!!

Bye.